Can I be a two CC guy?

[dtemp]

Here's what I know;

1.) I have had a tough time finding an F tuba I get along with

2.) I have tried a few Ebs and have liked them

3.) There is a common trend to make bass tubas "friggin' huge"

4.) There are a few CC/BBb tubas that are considered 3/4 size, but are pretty comparable in size to these new 6/4 tubas and play much better in tune

5.) I don't play in a major symphony orchestra. I don't plan on auditioning for one soon. I'm looking for a smaller tuba to cover quintet/small ensemble and a few solos (most of which will never be played for anyone but my ceiling tiles)

This I want to know;

Could I get away using a small CC (with the appropriate mouthpiece of course) as my small horn? Does anyone have experience doing this?

d(if a big EEb is the same size as a 3/4 CC, why learn new fingerings?)temp

[windshieldbug]

I have... as I've said many times, I used a Marzen slant-rotor CC as my main symphonic horn, and an early 70's Mirafone 184 4U CC as my quintet/solo horn. I used a Meinl F, too, but if you're not playing symphonic, you probably won't need to.

I use the 184 mostly, now, and even though I had to develop my ear to use the Marzan, the 184 is spot on all the time. Bottom line being: if you find a decent horn, yes, I think that can work just fine.

[ASTuba]

One of the best players I met in Kansas, who is a teacher at a good music school, has a 6/4 York CC, and a Miraphone 184 CC. No F tuba, and he plays better than most tuba players I know. It can be done. If you can't find an F tuba you like, stop looking and get a CC or BBb that you can be satisified with.

[quinterbourne]

Ask this guy...




...wealthiest tuba player in the world BTW

[cjk]

a Miraphone 184 CC is exactly what you are looking for, and here's a good one for sale by a good guy:

http://www.bassclefbrass.com/index.php?a=2&b=277

A Rudy Meinl 3/4 has a goofy scale by comparison.

Christian (who's a miraphone 184 fan)

[cjk]

a Miraphone 184 CC is exactly what you are looking for, and here's a good one for sale by a good guy:

http://www.bassclefbrass.com/index.php?a=2&b=277

A Rudy Meinl 3/4 has a goofy scale by comparison.

Christian (who's a miraphone 184 fan)

Rudy 3/4 is a different, larger animal. I had to play a couple of alternate fingerings, but it was a great horn. WAS a great horn.

OK, a different, larger animal with a goofy scale.

My points are (A) The Miraphone 184 is the perfect F tuba in CC tuba clothing and (B) the scale of a 184 is much better than a Rudy 3/4.

Intonation seems to be a taboo subject for some reason. I think that we as tuba players put up with many instruments whose scales would make our trumpet/trombone/horn playing cohorts dismiss such as a bowzer.

I have played Rudy 3/4 CCs with flat 5th partials AND way sharp 6th and 8th partials. A few don't have ALL those problems, but more do than don't. A lot of them have worse scales than my old 4/4 Rudy CC (pretty good intonation). Way worse than my 4345p CC (an instrument with fantastic intonation). I will freely acknowledge that they DO vary and some are better than others. I do LIKE the 3/4 Rudy, but most of them are not worth the work IMHO since the larger Rudy Meinls are better in tune than the 3/4.

[Chriss2760]

Yeah. I understand your question. Basically, "If I pony-up for a second tuba, am I making a mistake buying one in the same key as my primary horn?"
IHMO, the answer is no. (And I'm not going into the cerebral stuff about "primacy of training" in a given key or any of that stuff- this is just my philosophy.) If a horn turns your crank then go for it. Buying a tuba isn't a lifetime commitment. If the horn works for you then keep it. If it doesn't, drop out on it and try something else. (And tell us what you learned, ok?) I don't mean to minimize the fact that a tuba is a significant investment for all of us for most, if not all, of our lives. But if you are considering a second horn, then you must at least think you can afford it, and if that's the case then you probably can.
What I'm suggesting is that the primary consideration could be 'what do I want to play, and how do I want to sound?' Listen to your heart, and follow it. It may take awhile, but the $ will work themselves out and you'll be supporting your passion. That's always good, always powerful.

[southerntuba]

I also prefer a CC tuba for 5tet.

[Chuck(G)]

I also prefer a CC tuba for 5tet.

sigh.

My quintet says the same--they really like the sound of the CC in the low register (although you're lucky in quintet if the tuba ever gets much below a couple of ledgers below the staff).

What's even stranger, they think that the high notes at the top and above the staff sound cleaner on the CC than on the Eb.

Anyone have an explanation for that? I'm playing a little Besson CC.

[LoyalTubist]

Remember this:
It's more likely most serious tuba players will be an NFL quarterback than be the tuba player for a major symphony orchestra. Even if they don't play football.

[Wyvern]

Play on what you feel most comfortable and believe you perform your best.

In theory you are making life more difficult for yourself playing music in the higher register on CC, but that is partly counteracted by familiarity with that key of tuba and you can use a shallow cup mouthpiece to lighten tone and ease the high register.

IMHO CC is probably overall the most adaptable key of tuba, so if you are going to keep to one key, then CC is a good choice.

[southerntuba]

Chuck,
I've found that quintets like the 4/4 CC because of the warmth and support it gives the group. I have found that quintets I play with are split...some like the small F and some like the CC, even a big CC at times. Depends on how broad the group plays and whether they like support or blend from the bass voice.

[Rick Denney]

Could I get away using a small CC (with the appropriate mouthpiece of course) as my small horn? Does anyone have experience doing this?

Yes, you can get away with it. Yes, nearly everyone has experience with it, though not necessarily on small contrabasses (or CC's). I've played in quintet with 4/4 Bb tubas in the past.

I currently use F because it lets me use the full dyrnamic range of the instrument without worrying about burying the rest of the ensemble, and because it makes the high notes clearer and more secure. I need to be a better player than I am to play a contrabass for the quintet music that I now routinely play on my little F.

But there's a lot of quintet music that goes low enough to make many F tubas a bit of a struggle. A small F with a reliable low register might be harder to find for good players than a very small CC with a good upper register.

Rick "whose small F has a reliable low register" Denney

[DanClouse]

I switched to Eb for my quintet about a month ago, and have gotten nothing but positive feedback since. (Incidentally, I switched from CC because I got a new CC over the summer, and it's just too "wide" of a sound for playing chamber stuff)

This is not to say the Eb is your solution, but it is to say that once you find the SOUND that works for you, you will know it. The difference between bass tuba and contrabass tuba is the color, not the range. I've played CC in quintet for years, just because I liked the basement register when I needed it. When I switched to a bigger CC, the color no longer made sense in my quintet. I played F for years in tuba quartet where I needed the "tenor" color of a bass tuba to contrast with the thickness of the contrabass sound, but I don't like playing F in quintet because the low register tends to fall off.

If you are willing to invest in another instrument at this point, make sure that it is a contrast/complement to what you already own. If you own a big CC, a small CC *can* contrast, or it can be more of the same. Likewise, "friggin huge" F and Eb tubas can provide a good contrast or not. It's not the key, it's the instrument.

Formulate a list of the desirable attributes for your horn/sound, and go shopping accordingly. Don't go for the latest or greatest just because it's late or great. Don't shy away from instruments with an occasional alternate fingering. Find the horn that does the job and has the sound. Every horn has quirks, but not every horn has the sound.

[jeopardymaster]

So much of what I might have said already appears in the posts above. Here are 3 semi-new inputs:

1) There really isn't that much difference between a 184 and a good-sized Eb, say a 981 or 983. They are pretty much interchangeable - a bit more resistance on the Mirafone but more facile low register and slightly heavier sound. Having both is self-indulgence, but I can't bear parting with either.

2) It makes sense to have a decent BBb on hand, just in case. If you ever get a call to play treble clef parts in a brass band, it's a snap to play the Eb book on a CC, but transposing a Bb part is not fun unless you do it a whole bunch. Better just to dust off the BBb. Also (and I may get heat for this, but it's true), a good 4/4 BBb plays bigger than a 4/4 CC of similar heft and configuration, so maybe you can get by with a decent (cheaper) BBb in lieu of a really big (and big bucks) CC.

3) If you have more than one horn, with each increment it's geometrically more important that they be "plug and play." To Doc's earlier comment, if a horn has a bunch of intonation or response quirks, you'll need a refresher course every time you pick it up, and if you're not careful you might suck. Who has the time for that?

[MaryAnn]

If you have useable high range chops on a CC, the 184 CC will ring your chimes for quintet.

I just got mine back from the local orchestral pro, who used it for a few months in the symphony quintet. He loved it, they loved it, he has to go buy his own now. He plays a 2145 MW in the larger venues.

MA

[RyanSchultz]

Why not?

If it sounds good and you don't have to deal with auditions, I doubt anyone will care/notice.

[Mark E. Chachich]

I used my Meinl Weston 32 CC for a lot of my quintet playing,
my Alex 163 CC for most everything else and my E flat when
needed (not often).

point 1: some quintets like the CC (or BB flat) sound
point 2: use what you like and works best for you
point 3: I actually find the high range on a contrabass
tubas eaiser for me then the F or E flat tubas
point 4: when you get to tell the rest of the quintet which instruments to play and in what keys...(ok, end of soapbox for point 4)
however: take suggestions from the others seriously, but unless you were hired to play a specific tuba it is usually your call.

best,
Mark

Also (added remark):I agree with Doc on the 184, these are fine tubas.

Mark

[Wyvern]

The B&S PT-3 has not been mentioned here.

Would that not also make an alternative small CC? From the dimensions it does not look any bigger than an Eb.

[Chuck(G)]

After reading the above posts, I'll reiterate:

184 CC is the great compromise here, and for many tubists, it is the default answer to your question. It may not, however, be for you. Only you can discover that. Does anyone make a 1/2 size CC besides Miraphone? (Yeah, I'd call it more of a 1/2 size than a 3/4 size.)

Well, the Weril/ J680Yamaha 621 CC tubas are pretty darned small. I wonder if the 184 seems smaller because the bell is tall enough to move the sound a bit further from your ears when compared with the 621. I think Kanstul also has a smal CC. And there's always that Joseph Lidl small CC.

I sort of wonder sometimes if the right tuba for quintet might be a 3/4 CC recording bass...