Aversion to Gershwin etc [and all that jazz]

[Locky]

Any constructive suggestions please to develop a better understanding and ability to play these forms of music. Issue is principally one of small ensemble work where the bass tuba takes a prominent and vital role in cross and jazz rhythms. I have no real like of these forms of music and do not listen to or practice as a matter of choice. In performance I have a tendency to read the dots. It is not a viable option to go play other styles – they inevitably and rightly form part of the repertoire and go with the territory.

[LoyalTubist]

My ex-wife hated George Gershwin. She understood him. She just hated jazz. I think his music is a lot of fun. If you haven't played with an orchestra such pieces as Rhapsody in Blue or An American in Paris, you missed out on a lot of fun.

I am training my new wife that Gershwin is to be highly respected.

[Steve Inman]

1) Get some recordings and listen to them ...

Agree. (I also don't like Gershwin pieces, fwiw.)

Cheers,

[Chuck(G)]

Agree. (I also don't like Gershwin pieces, fwiw.)

I think there's too much of Gershwin to say "I don't like his pieces." What do you think of his string quartets, in particular "Lullaby"? It's not jazzy at all--and very haunting.

It's sort of like saying "I don't like Ives" without knowing that he composed some very tame German lieder for example.

[Eupher6]

Love him or hate him, it's pretty hard to discount Gershwin's impact on American music in several idioms.

IMHO, he was one of those geniuses who was far ahead of his time and checked out early (stroke? brain aneurysm?) because everybody else couldn't handle what he was doing.

[Locky]

Thanks thus far. Valid points made particularly those of Chuck & Eupher 6. By way of clarification the reason I cited Gershwin is that I have had some recent issues with a pretty complex version of I’ve Got Rhythm for septette. It left me exhausted with the nagging doubt that I perhaps don’t have rhythm. Working with a metronome eventually sorted it but I fear Gershwin would have been aghast. I naturally prefer a form that is not jazz or swing but recognise I have to turn my hand to and work on what is required. Like it or no. It is this final point that I am interested in views on. How does one develop a feel and ability for this other than the obvious keep working at it? Any other pointers, experiences to pass on please.

Thanks John

[Chuck(G)]

How does one develop a feel and ability for this other than the obvious keep working at it? Any other pointers, experiences to pass on please.

Can you dance it? I think whole-body involvement is the quickest way of getting a "feel" for a type of music. That goes for everything from a 2/4 march to Balkan rhythms, at least for me.

[MartyNeilan]

I am training my new wife ...

Good Luck

[Eupher6]

Being the type of musician that has to work hard on pretty much everything (because NOTHING comes easy), I think it'll happen when you least expect it.

By that I mean that just about when you're ready to throw in the towel and heave your instrument across the room (sustaining a torn rotator cuff in the process), something "magical" happens and you've reached the next plateau. Gershwin starts sounding like he's got rhythm.

It is JUST a plateau, however, and there's that next one just on the outer edge of the horizon.

Reaching it, we go through the thing again where we're ready to throw in that towel and heave the instrument across the room, sustaining a reinjury of that torn rotator cuff, but that's developing the art.

Either that or I love injuring myself and paying a lot of money for doctor bills and dented horns.

[MaryAnn]

Chúc em có một Giáng Sinh = Merry Christmas

My Vietnamese co-worker says you might want to say it this way:

Chúc em có một Giáng Sinh vui ve = Merry Christmas

He says without those last two words it just says "Christmas to you."

MA, who is only being picky because she had the resource right on the other side of the cubicle wall.

Merry Christmas!

[lgb&dtuba]

One of the problems you might face in reading jazz and/or swing charts is that there are some differences between what you see written on the chart and how you'd actually play them. Western music notation breaks down a little in trying to express those idioms.

Take a look at http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/jazz/ for an intro to some of those concepts. Google "jazz improvisation" and you'll find many more discussions on this topic.

You'll need to develop your ear so that you can make the translation between what you might see on the chart and what you really need to play. You can only do that by listening to a lot of those songs until you internalize what they sound like.

I haven't played any Gershwin in a while so what you see there may well be what you need to play depending on the actual arrangement you are reading. The more you get into jazz and swing charts the more you'll see the variances between the notation and what you really need to play begin to show up.

Do some reading on jazz bass and rhythm techniques as well. There are bass techniques that apply here on tuba as well. Playing slightly before or after the beat comes to mind. A "square" player plays pretty much on the traditional beat and even time divisions. In other words within classic western notation. Jazz will tend to swing it and have more exotic timings.

Your ear is your best tool for this. Listen, listen, listen. Don't over analyze it.

Good luck and have fun with it.

Jim Wagner

[tubajoe]

Chiming in, looks like a fun thread and more importantly I am avoiding the last bit of shopping I need to do.

As far as Gershwin goes, go rent the Woody Allen movie "Manhattan". The first couple of minutes puts Gershwin in perspective. I used to not like Gershwin, now he is one of my favs. (living in NYC does help one appreciate him too)

As far as appreciating other "jazz" music goes... appreciate any music that has a groove, and more importantly, appreciate any music makes girls shake their hips. I'm serious.

Forget reading about "jazz" to get an understanding -- there is practically more pontificatory blather written about the the "history of jazz" than anything else in the world short of religion (and certain anglo-collegiate graduate students see the academic over-analyzation of jazz AS a religion anyway...) I'm certainly no "jazz expert" (har har) but I do know it is something you have to EXPERIENCE.

Music IS communication. That's all. Any type of music is communication.

To add to that:
The tuba is a REMARKABLE tool to communicate with. In fact, it communicates better than just about any wind instrument and can steal the thunder from the snootyest violin player or the slickest guitar player in about half of a second. In classical music, conductors either love us or fear us, there is no other way we are ever seen.

In performance I have a tendency to read the dots.

That's not making music. That's live replication. My computer can read the dots better than the best players in the world.

Rent the movie "Dead Poets Society"

Music has VERY LITTLE to do with dots on the page, ever. A teacher once told me that the "dots are only approximations". (tell that to your next audition panel... ) ...this is especially true with stuff outside of classical music, as most other music is not really written down in the same manner. It tends to be hard to represent with dots. ...so much of making it come to life is inserting yourself into it and becoming a part of it.


Man, I do feel your pain tho -- it is VERY hard to play music that you are not into. In fact, I sometimes find it next to impossible -- which at times, can make for a difficult professional conundrum. The good thing is that I like most music.

To sum up, whatever music you are forced to endure playing, try to find the "heartbeat" of it. Try to see it in the perspective OF the people who actually DO like it. Put yourself in their shoes and try to figure out why in the world they would actually like it...


And speaking of music I dont like very much... Holiday Muzak. ...I better get shopping before my wife finds out I am avoiding it.


Peace and Happy Festivus!

[eupher61]

The OP implied there's no desire to learn or listen to jazz-ish styles at all. But, how to learn them?

Responses said "listen to it".

Umm...there's one problem...

How can you learn to play it if you won't learn how to play it?

You gotta listen. You gotta feel it. If you can't feel it, and won't listen enough to try and LEARN to feel it (oxymoronic, maybe), please, don't even TRY to play it. It's gonna come off like the Boston Pops trying to play swing...it just don't work.

[Allen]

Well, if you don't listen enough to a particular style of music to have a feel for it, no one is going to want to listen to you play it -- it will never sound right to your listeners.

It seems your only options are to avoid Gershwin and his ilk, or to learn to like it. This isn't facetious. You really can learn to like something you think you don't like.

For example, try learning to dance to this music; take "swing dance" lessons. You may like at least the dancing. Another possibility is to play along with some recordings; again you may like at least the process.

Another thing you could do is to take lessons from someone who is well-versed in Gershwin and jazz. Learning to read from a lead sheet can be a fun challenge.

Best of luck!

Cheers,
Allen

[davidwburns]

I second the good advice about listening and moving to the music, but I want to add an important element: you need to be singing this stuff. If you can't sing it, you can't play it.

Listen to the music...let your body move while you listen (even if you're just tapping a foot or a finger)...when you're really getting familiar with it, then start singing it (use nonsense scat sounds). When the voice figures out how to make the rhythms work naturally, then you're ready to play it.

I can tell a big difference with piano players who play Gershwin note-for-note versus the ones who play it more by feel. Gershwin sounds TERRIBLE if you play exactly what's on the page.

Good luck!

[Locky]

Dancing? - Come on chaps there are limits. It may give Mrs L ideas!! Seriously though there are some thoughtful responses here and I am grateful for them. Thanks John

[tubatooter1940]

I had the same problem with country music (meaning ho-hum top 40 stuff). I love the hard-driving stuff and blue grass.
It took me awhile, coming from a jazz-dixieland backround to learn to play that cleanly and simply. I could only sing pop-type ballads due to my city accent.

[Chuck(G)]

Okay, so you don't dance. Don't get caught in a Dalcroze class .

Here's another idea that might work for you.

Play along with a recording. No written music necessary--just go with it. Dixieland is a good place to start; the keys and modulations and rhythms tend to be easier than more progressive forms of jazz.

You'll have to listen hard and depend on your ear a lot, but it can be learned.

[TubaRay]

I am training my new wife ...

Good Luck

From my experience, this usually in done in the opposite direction to that stated above. I have been going through "training" now for a very long time.

[eupher61]

Any constructive suggestions please to develop a better understanding and ability to play these forms of music. Issue is principally one of small ensemble work where the bass tuba takes a prominent and vital role in cross and jazz rhythms.

Please explain a bit more what you're talking about playing, too. Transcriptions for brass quint/sext/whatever-tet? As the bass of a swing-type trio/quartet/whatever-tet? Reading note for note, reading from leadsheets, nothing written??