Different valve tunings

ASTuba · Post by **ASTuba** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:39 pm

I know that most of Matt's Dillon creations have the 3rd valve slide cut shorter, so you can get a 1-2 combination in tune with the 3rd valve. You have to pull out for 2-3 combinations, but it is a nice feature to have sometimes.

Bob Mosso · Post by **Bob Mosso** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:41 pm

I've given it a try, see

viewtopic.php?t=10663&highlight=

To make it work I needed to have longer slides fabricated... Other than practicing extended range scales, I havn't seen that low Bnat (1/2 step above pedal) but once.

Bob

Steve Inman · Post by **Steve Inman** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:22 pm

IIRC, a two tone 3rd valve was discussed somewhere -- maybe an older Arban's trumpet edition? I know I've read about trumpet players "way back when" using that option for certain situations.

[edit: Hmm -- I somehow missed the post immediately above, which answers this question, as well as confirming my thoughts below. Perhaps I was slowly typing my answer, er ... with frequent breaks, and the post above wasn't there when I hit "reply" ...? It was too early to be sleepy!]

I can't see any reason why you couldn't have a 2-step 3rd valve, but you'd probably have to pull 1st more often, whenever you start using 1+2 when you would have used 3 alone.

Cheers,

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:27 pm

http://galvanizedjazz.com/tuba.html

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:45 pm

1st = 1/2
2nd = 1
3rd = 2 ?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:03 pm

The old French ministerial system used valve 3 = 2 steps. You'll see this on old 6-valve French C tubas and a few antique saxhorns, both Belgian and French.

Many old German texts, on the other hand, seem to prefer 3 (1.5 steps) to the 12 combination.

Go figure.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:43 pm

Actually, a number of older tubas were made with very long 3rd slides, so that the 3rd valve could be either 1.5 or 2 tones. I have two old Eb tubas like that.

I would have to have a pretty compelling reason to switch to a different fingering sytem. Otherwise, it seems like those arguments in favor of using a Dvorak computer keyboard instead of the Sholes (standard) layout. Yeah, there may be some advantages to the "improved" layout, but I'll wait for everyone else to switch first. Can you imagine picking up another tuba that's in the same key you're used to, but you can't finger it because it has a standard layout?

Personally, I would rather have lots of valves.

Cheers,
Allen

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:54 pm

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:59 pm

ASTuba wrote:I know that most of Matt's Dillon creations have the 3rd valve slide cut shorter, so you can get a 1-2 combination in tune with the 3rd valve. You have to pull out for 2-3 combinations, but it is a nice feature to have sometimes.

Indeed. My Besson has 3 as exactly 1 1/2 tones. Believe me, it really came in handy on the last community band concert where we had some wicked eighth note triplets at a quick tempo needing alternate fingerings. Besides, with the comp loops, you don't need to pull for 2-3 to be in tune!

More valves? with my pinky being too short, being naturally left handed playing conventional valved brass right handed since day one, fifth grade, and being left eye dominant, hence needing upright valves to the right rather than front valves to the left, I'll take my 3-valves compensated, thank you.

Bob Mosso · Post by **Bob Mosso** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:42 pm

Bob1062 wrote:What do you think a "standard" fingering chart would be for 4valve tuba with a 2tone 3rd valve?

My best mathmatical estimates, your results may vary:
0
2
1
12
3 tune the 3rd slide 8 cents flat
23 it should be 8 cents sharp
24 tune the 4th slide 8 cents flat
14 it will be 17 cents sharp
124 will be 44 sharp, 34 will be 39 flat, no good choice
234 about 5 flat
134 30 sharp
1234 67 sharp
0 pedal

It doesn't make me want to give it a try...

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:55 pm

With a 3-valve comp, the only combinations that are sharp are 1-2, as it is on any tuba, but which is used as an alternate to 3, and not the other way around, and 123, which is only @ 10 cents sharp, very lippable. So, at least theoretically, setting aside the 5th partials as being inherently flat, although mine are surprisingly in tune, a 3 valve comp has as perfect intonation as it gets:

http://www.tuba.com/e/tuning_a_tuba.htm

After the article compares the relative intonation, here's the verdict:

"Conclusion: This is by far the best intonation. Many players would not wish to use this type of instrument because of the 5 semitone gap between the lowest 123 note and the fundamental."

I, for one, am content that my tuba and my 4-string bass guitar have the same low range: E 41 Hz. Occasionally it would be nice to have a good low Eb for the right endings, and if I have a measure or two to cheat I will pull 3 all the way to get low Eb. It doesn't come up that often. Of course, I'm a band player, and not an orchestra player. If I had an orchestra gig, I'd get a 5v CC just like everybody else and learn to deal with it by effectively turning my 1st and thumb slides into trombone slides. But I'm not looking for such a gig.

Here's the funny thing: with my 3-valve comp in community band, when I'm playing with others who have CC tubas, we blend perfectly in both tone and intonation, and make a rock-solid foundation to the band. When I play with other BBb tubas, most of them don't pull, and I have to play using 1-2 and not 3, or it wobbles, even though I'm the one with "correct" pitch! And the whole band has to adjust! Go figure!

Now, when playing my souzy, you have to set it up conventionally. I had the top loop made into a usable slide, so I pull 1 a little for 1-2, 3 is "permanently" pulled for 2-3 or even a little flat so you don't have to pull 1 so much for 1-3; 1-2-3 is still just a tad sharp at 1's maximum pull, but lippable, so what for low B nat and lowest E nat. Now the irony: "false" open pedal Eb is perfect on my particular souzy, and so is "false" 2 pedal D and 1 pedal Db. 1-2 pedal C is possible, but not solid. So for outdoor marches, this is a superior instrument. Just as on a 5-valve CC tuba, you learn to associate a particular left hand position with the right hand valve fingerings so it becomes automatic.

I much prefer the stability of my Besson.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:21 pm

Sorry, I just gotta say it:
Different strokes for different folks!

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:00 am

I think the up-side is a slightly extended range, but with serious intonation issues. The down side is that you get fewer alternate fingerings. It may be handy to pull the 3rd slide out a half-step occasionally for special occasions where it could make a tricky fingering work, but most of us decided years ago that it isn't usually worth the trouble. The tritone fourth valve has the same problem; it is good for one note but not so useful in combination with other valves. For more discussion of this topic see
http://www.galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/History.html.