Audition Tips...

passion4tuba · Post by **passion4tuba** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:52 pm

Can it not just be said in English?

SplatterTone · Post by **SplatterTone** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:08 pm

I think I'm going to get some really geeky ones with the old-lady-chain

And the rhinestones. Don't forget the rhinestones a la 1950/60s and Farside cartoons.

passion4tuba · Post by **passion4tuba** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:11 pm

richland tuba, my audtions are in tyler, but i'll see you at state hopefully.

tubaguy9 · Post by **tubaguy9** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:29 pm

the elephant wrote:
Doc wrote:12 majors + 36 minors = 48. Hmm... Apparently not. And don't ask me to spell anything either.
I teach 12 chromatic as well.

ALL scales aid in reading, and chromatic runs do not always start and end on Bb. There is a chromatic scale for each of our 12 tones, and everyone should practice running from A to A and Db to Db, etc. quickly and cleanly, in all registers, because the chromatic scale was not invented for contests to show how low and high you can play. It is a part of our language as much as any major or minor scale.

He also might be talking about the Blues scale, whole tone, octotonic or pentatonic, or whatever idea his teacher put into his head to give him the seemingly arbitrary number of 60.

There are 48 major and minor scales. But there are many, many more forms of Western scales out there, each with 12 tonal centers, and each of some use to the performer.

Well, for the 60, three of the majors count as 2 scales...
Db=C#,
Cb=B
Gb=F#...
so, therefore, 15 majors...making their minor counterparts
Bb=A#,
Ab=G#
Eb=D#...
That's what I'm meaning...

tubaguy9 · Post by **tubaguy9** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:35 pm

Doc wrote:
the elephant wrote:
Doc wrote:12 majors + 36 minors = 48. Hmm... Apparently not. And don't ask me to spell anything either.
I teach 12 chromatic as well.

ALL scales aid in reading, and chromatic runs do not always start and end on Bb. There is a chromatic scale for each of our 12 tones, and everyone should practice running from A to A and Db to Db, etc. quickly and cleanly, in all registers, because the chromatic scale was not invented for contests to show how low and high you can play. It is a part of our language as much as any major or minor scale.

He also might be talking about the Blues scale, whole tone, octotonic or pentatonic, or whatever idea his teacher put into his head to give him the seemingly arbitrary number of 60.

There are 48 major and minor scales. But there are many, many more forms of Western scales out there, each with 12 tonal centers, and each of some use to the performer.

I wrote:Do we not use the 12 tone system anymore? 3 standard minors for each major? All that = 48? Did I misunderstand what you were saying?
No argument there, according to my original wording.

I also wrote:Doc (noting that modes and oddball minors are not designated as "standard" scales, despite being a fan of people learning all they can)

I didn't see where I was off from your assertions, based on my original text. Can I jump up and down now and shout, "King's X, King's X?"

Oh yeah...lemme find the sheet that says the pattern for blues scales: okay, this is based upon the major scale:
Root, b3rd, 4th, #4th, 5th, and b7th...
See? It's not made up...
NOW LEARN EM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(or die)

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:30 pm

Doc wrote:Sounds great. I've already sprung cork sandals, shorts, and black crew socks on them. My kids are still young, and they couldn't believe I was going to town like that. Positively thrilling! Almost as fun as blaming a silent fart on them in the checkout line.

HA! I used to do that to my mother when I was in my 20's. She was always really hung up on appearance, and when I was visiting I'd go out to the store wearing plaid shorts and a patterned shirt and black socks just to get the unavoidable bug-eyed comment from her. It's probably much more painful for your kids though; you really should show a little mercy. Heaven knows what they will do for revenge when they are teenagers....

MA

quinterbourne · Post by **quinterbourne** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:00 am

banihex wrote:If you play Beethovens "Piano Sonata No. 14 in c# minor" in db minor, it would sound different. It's not about what keys you push down.

But the question is... that even if a C# scale sounds different from Db scale (which is debatable) does that make the C# scale a different scale from Db?

For example, if I played a C major scale with a very bright thin sound... then a played C major scale again with a full, dark sound... they would sound different... but they'd still be the same scale.

My point is just because they may sound different doesn't necessarily make them different scales.

ubertuba · Post by **ubertuba** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:12 am

banihex wrote:If you play Beethovens "Piano Sonata No. 14 in c# minor" in db minor, it would sound different. It's not about what keys you push down.

How would it sound different? I don't understand.

SplatterTone · Post by **SplatterTone** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:28 am

Not to mention e-double-flat minor. Now THERE'S a key with soul!

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:36 am

Actually, there is a difference between the key of Ab major (4 flats in the key signature) and the key of G# major (1 double sharp and 6 sharps in the key signature)
and
a difference between the key of E (4 sharps) and the key of F flat (1 doubleflat and 6 flats), though....

Most decent amateurs can sightread in the keys of Ab and E with few, if any, missed notes. Most decent amateurs (and even some pros) cannot sightread in the keys of G# and F flat without missing at least some notes. We found this out the hard way in a church orchestra / band I used to play with, when playing pieces by a certain boneheaded arranger that obviously didn't know how to use Finale.

quinterbourne · Post by **quinterbourne** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:46 am

If I were doing an audition, competition or something... and they said "please play two major scales of your choice" could I then play Bb major twice and then say that the first time was a Bb scale and the second time was an A# scale? No. They are not different scales... but they have the potential of sounding differently based on the musician playing them.

What I'd like to know is how many people practice C# scales separately from Db scales? Mentally, they would be different.

ubertuba · Post by **ubertuba** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:47 pm

quinterbourne wrote:What I'd like to know is how many people practice C# scales separately from Db scales? Mentally, they would be different.

If you're just practicing the major scale pattern starting on a particular note, and the pattern is memorized, does it really make a difference what you call the scale? Does the name change anything about how you play it?

I'm seriously curious because my thoughts have always been (and by always I mean the year and half I've been practicing scales with dedication) that you train your body and your ears to play the scale well, with proper intonation and all that good stuff. I don't really think about notes when I play scales; I have the fingerings memorized and the sound of the scale in my head.

Of course this is all seperate from reading and playing music in different keys. I understand that seeing different notes for the same pitches makes a big difference in that situation, but I want to know what everyone thinks is the difference when you are just running the scales, like for some auditions.

Captain Sousie · Post by **Captain Sousie** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:21 pm

-- . -- --- .-. .. --.. .. -. --. / .. ... / -... --- .-. .. -. --. --..-- / -... ..- - / .-.. . .- .-. -. .. -. --. / .. ... / . .- ... -.--

-.. --- -. .----. - / -.-- --- ..- / .--- ..- ... - / .-.. --- ...- . / .--- .- ...- .- / -... .- ... . -.. / -.-. --- -.. . / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - --- .-. ...

... --- ..-

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:36 pm

Doc wrote:
MartyNeilan wrote:Actually, there is a difference between the key of Ab major (4 flats in the key signature) and the key of G# major (1 double sharp and 6 sharps in the key signature)
and a difference between the key of E (4 sharps) and the key of F flat (1 doubleflat and 6 flats), though....

Most decent amateurs can sightread in the keys of Ab and E with few, if any, missed notes. Most decent amateurs (and even some pros) cannot sightread in the keys of G# and F flat without missing at least some notes. We found this out the hard way in a church orchestra / band I used to play with, when playing pieces by a certain boneheaded arranger that obviously didn't know how to use Finale.
I understand your points, Marty. Unless one practices in sharp keys, it can be a real task reading that stuff. I never said a person shouldn't do that, but it's really splitting hairs for high school kids, and even a lot of college students.Doc

But, here's the kicker - how many people practice major scales with double flats / double sharps in them (like G#, D#, F flat , and B double flat)? Such keys are little more than theoritical exercises and having double flats or sharps in a major key signature borders on the ridiculous.

lgb&dtuba · Post by **lgb&dtuba** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:01 pm

Captain Sousie wrote:-- . -- --- .-. .. --.. .. -. --. / .. ... / -... --- .-. .. -. --. --..-- / -... ..- - / .-.. . .- .-. -. .. -. --. / .. ... / . .- ... -.--

-.. --- -. .----. - / -.-- --- ..- / .--- ..- ... - / .-.. --- ...- . / .--- .- ...- .- / -... .- ... . -.. / -.-. --- -.. . / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - --- .-. ...

... --- ..-

For the Morse code impaired. it said -

"Memorizing is boring. But learning is easy don't you just love java based code translators?"

Wasn't worth the effort.

Jim "No, I didn't use a translator" Wagner

Captain Sousie · Post by **Captain Sousie** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:57 pm

lgb&dtuba wrote:
Captain Sousie wrote:-- . -- --- .-. .. --.. .. -. --. / .. ... / -... --- .-. .. -. --. --..-- / -... ..- - / .-.. . .- .-. -. .. -. --. / .. ... / . .- ... -.--

-.. --- -. .----. - / -.-- --- ..- / .--- ..- ... - / .-.. --- ...- . / .--- .- ...- .- / -... .- ... . -.. / -.-. --- -.. . / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - --- .-. ...

... --- ..-
For the Morse code impaired. it said -

"Memorizing is boring. But learning is easy don't you just love java based code translators?"

Wasn't worth the effort.

Jim "No, I didn't use a translator" Wagner

You are right, it wasn't worth the effort. Having the wierd morse code randomness, such as earlier in this thread (hmm, I cant help but notice that almost all of it has been removed...fancy that), sort of takes us back to the old days of the KarlMarx posts...like this.

KarlMarx wrote: BloÃŸ noch ein Peckhorn Mosquitolini style! Gottlieb davon wrote "Les Petits Riens". GroÃŸer Arsch fÃ¼r little gas.

Carolus Marximus

(hmm, I can't help but notice that almost all of the morse code prior to mine has been removed...fancy that)

Sou

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:25 pm

bloke wrote:After five minutes, she looked at them cross-eyed, looked at me crossly, tossed the sheet on the floor, and said, "I'd rather just figure them out myself. It will be much faster." She knew them before she went to bed.

When I finally decided to learn at least the basic scales, I also just figured them out, and I have always ghosted scales on the steering wheel, etc.

Even without ever having seen the connection to the written scale, though, the drilled patterns come readily to the fingers when musically appropriate. When there is a fragment of a G scale in the music, for examples, the fingerings remember the G scale because that part of the scale is what sounds correct. I have never burdened by mind with: "That's a fragment of the G scale starting on the fifth degree". The fingers just do it.

Funny thing is, I thought I was cheating in the way I learned the scales. My motivation was that our band director was taking the band through the circle of fifths for the major scales as a warm-up exercise, and I didn't want to admit that I only knew about half of them. I was quite surprised to discover that even though I learned it the way I did, it still worked.

Rick "who needs to do it again for the rest of the scales" Denney

ubertuba · Post by **ubertuba** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:18 pm

What do you mean by "ghost"? If you mean do the scales with just your fingers, I do that all the time (now that you mention it I guess it did help me a lot). Isn't "ghosting" (if I interpreted you correctly) a form a memorization, or commiting patterns to muscle memory, or whatever you call it? It seems like I agree with you Bloke, but I don't understand the distinction you made between memorizing and learning, and I'd love for you to explain.

I totally get what Rick said too:

Even without ever having seen the connection to the written scale, though, the drilled patterns come readily to the fingers when musically appropriate.

That's what I was trying to say in my earlier post; I don't see the need for connections to written notes when I'm learning scale patterns.

I love this kind of "science" of learning stuff!

ubertuba · Post by **ubertuba** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:52 pm

I didn't mean ghosting as a problem, although I still don't know exactly what Rick and Bloke meant by it. It sounds like you're talking about when a note doesn't speak when you try to attack it, while I was talking about moving my fingers in scale patterns with no instrument at random times, like when I was holding my girlfriend's hand once (she loved that!)

tubaguy9 · Post by **tubaguy9** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:58 pm

Doc wrote:If you know the instrument well enough to know where all the notes are, "ghosting" isn't a problem.

If you know the instrument well enough, along with knowing a fair bit of jazz, you could fake all the way through the scales

Do only every other or every third note, ghost the rest, and Whala! You got a scale!