The rebirth of a Holton 345 has started...

[Rick Denney]

Why were so many 345's sold to schools? I would have thought they would have been pretty expensive for most school districts.

The CC versions weren't, of course, but the BBb versions often had no other market. They are big, heavy, and durable, but they were being made at a time when schools were thralls to the rotary altar, and had to have Miraphones. King and Conn were the big competition for schools buying American-made instruments, and it is obvious that both were far more successful than was Holton. My Holton was made about the time Conn was coming unglued, and Kings were out of fashion.

We should remember that Holton never made very many of these, and they were commercially unsuccessful. But as Doc keeps telling us, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while.

Mine was owned by a school in Wisconsin before the previous owner acquired it. And it was severely battered, though not nearly as severely as Dave's. My bell, for example, has been repaired at least twice, but it is not patched. In fact, I don't have any patches on my Holton. I think my bell could be restored to perfection without bring replaced.

That said, I don't need my Holton to look like a Hirsbrunner. I just need it to play marvelously and look acceptable from the audience, which it already does. A good valve job would be nice, as well as removing the dents in the outer branches, shortening the first valve slide, and retubing the main slide (which is too loose).

But who knows? I might win the lottery someday.

Rick "none of whose tubas are perfect" Denney

[bort]

Why were so many 345's sold to schools? I would have thought they would have been pretty expensive for most school districts.

And they're huge. I'm picturing some small 14-year old trying to hold one of these things. No wonder so many of them were beat to hell, they were probably dropped a lot!

[MikeMason]

I've often wondered how many high school kids could play one of these things in tune and with any zip.Mine,which is a reclaimed high school horn also,takes a pretty high amount of buzz energy to make it wake up and not just go Wooooooooooooooo............

[Bandmaster]

I've often wondered how many high school kids could play one of these things in tune and with any zip.Mine,which is a reclaimed high school horn also,takes a pretty high amount of buzz energy to make it wake up and not just go Wooooooooooooooo............

Mine doesn't! Or should I say didn't, since I am not sure how it will play after I get it back, but I am assuming it will play even better. My 345 blows (blew) very easy, but if I decided to let lose it handled it just fine and would just rumble the whole room. That was the thing that really sold me on this horn and made me want to sink the money into it. It responded so easy that you didn't really need to huff and puff to sound good. Maybe it's your non-Holton valve section that holds your horn back?

I am curious as to the new bells that are being used on some of these restored 345's. Are they NOS or are they being made for a current production tuba or is someone hand fabricating them?

The bell is the same as used on the Yorkbrunner and the Nirschl 6/4!
The 2165 bell is the old Melton 6/4 Kaiser BBb bell!
Mike

All I know is that Dale said he has a source in Europe and picked up a couple of bells for possible future use. And Dan says it matches up with my old bell perfectly (minus the patches of course).

[Bob Sadler]

At the end of this project, you will have about 10K invested as well as a Holton 345 that is better than they ever were coming out of the factory.

Harold, in light of your recent "tuba science" thread can you define what you mean by "better" and provide evidence that a restored tuba will meet that definition?

I'm asking because it seems that some of these instruments respond to the slightest whisp of air and some require substantially more work (see previous comments by R. Denney and by Mike Mason and Bandmaster in this thread). Are there known conditions for the difference in response between instruments and are these conditions being specifically met by the plating/machining operations described in this thread? Could the "magic" simply be a coincidence of several factors that could actually be destroyed by fitting every joint perfectly and machining to tight tolerances?

Bob Sadler

[ASTuba]

If you talk with any repair guy that has spent time working on the Holton 340, 345, 350 or 355, they will tell you that the workmanship was less than optimal.

Ok, jumping on a pedestal here for a bit....

ANY technician that does any sort of repair work spends 95% of his day fixing crap that was wrong at the factory. The entire industry of musical instrument repair wouldn't be as profitable, if manufacturers actually did things the right way at the factory. I don't know how many Conns, Yamahas, Bachs, and other brands I've fixed that have the same issues that Holtons do.

Off of my pedestal now.

[southerntuba]

Then what in your opinion are some tubas (make and/or model) that are "done right" at the factory?

[ASTuba]

Then what in your opinion are some tubas (make and/or model) that are "done right" at the factory?

Good question, and to be honest, the answer is.

NONE

I have worked on every major maker of tubas, and they all aren't perfect.

Humans aren't perfect. These instruments are designed, and made by humans. Sometimes things go unnoticed. What's good enough for the manufacturer is good enough.

These companies are in the business of making money. If they took the time to make things be perfect, they'd not be able to make enough money. That's why each horn of a particular make/model will be different than the last. There's no two tubas that are identical.

Just some food for thought.

[The Big Ben]

I've often wondered how many high school kids could play one of these things in tune and with any zip.Mine,which is a reclaimed high school horn also,takes a pretty high amount of buzz energy to make it wake up and not just go Wooooooooooooooo............

You might be surprised. Some young kids can get pretty enthusiastic and fill a tuba up pretty well.

I'm an HS teacher and our band has a couple of 4/4 tubas of some sort. Two brothers play 'em. You should hear those boys playing the fight song at basketball games. All you can hear are the tubas blasting over everyone. Our fight song is "On Wisconsin" with different words. Those of you who played fight songs and that one in particular know that the low brass parts are some of the best reasons to be a teenaged boy playing the tuba or baritone. (I would imagine these are the same teenaged boys some were complaining about at "Tuba Christmas" although our boys know when and where to play loud- they are good musicians.)

We have convertible tubas and they march with 'em, too. Sound pretty good in concert as well.

Jeff

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Ok, jumping on a pedestal here for a bit....

ANY technician that does any sort of repair work spends 95% of his day fixing crap that was wrong at the factory. The entire industry of musical instrument repair wouldn't be as profitable, if manufacturers actually did things the right way at the factory. I don't know how many Conns, Yamahas, Bachs, and other brands I've fixed that have the same issues that Holtons do.

Off of my pedestal now.

Utter crap!

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works

[ASTuba]

Ok, jumping on a pedestal here for a bit....

ANY technician that does any sort of repair work spends 95% of his day fixing crap that was wrong at the factory. The entire industry of musical instrument repair wouldn't be as profitable, if manufacturers actually did things the right way at the factory. I don't know how many Conns, Yamahas, Bachs, and other brands I've fixed that have the same issues that Holtons do.

Off of my pedestal now.

Utter crap!

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works

Ok Dan,

Then what do you call all of the brass instruments that I've repaired with crappy soldering from the factory? Or woodwinds that are out of the box with poor key work? Trombone slides that aren't parallel.

Those of us that don't get to spend all of our days doing nothing but they type of work you do, still have to fix a lot of mistakes from the factory.

If that wasn't the case, NAPBIRT wouldn't work so hard to improve quality with their Band Instrument Council. Are you in NAPBIRT???

[Donn]

ANY technician that does any sort of repair work spends 95% of his day fixing crap that was wrong at the factory.

Utter crap!

See, he agrees.

[iiipopes]

Well that and the fact that for the most part, these are being restored by experts - not being assembled by the day help in a factory by some guy that can't wait for his shift to end.

I disagree with that comment entirely. Of course, in any line of work, profession or craft there will be those just in it for the money, but for the most part the people I've met, interacted with or hung around actually take their job with pride of the music their products produce.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Then what do you call all of the brass instruments that I've repaired with crappy soldering from the factory? Or woodwinds that are out of the box with poor key work? Trombone slides that aren't parallel.

Andy-
Unfortunate? I don't see a lot of slop solder here except on some of the King and Conn tubas. If your talking about doing set up on new horns, thats not really anything new and has always been a common situation, its part of the retailer's repair technician's job. I would not call that a defect, but I understand where your coming from. Minor adjustments and regulations however are part of the service that the shop is to perform on instruments arriving new from the manufacturer, its for the most part not repair.

Those of us that don't get to spend all of our days doing nothing but the type of work you do, still have to fix a lot of mistakes from the factory.

Maybe so, I get to spend a lot of time fixing the mistakes of other repair shops. Let me tell you about my day Scooter (yesterday): I got to spend about three hours on the phone (woohoo), another couple of hours straightening and cleaning filthy and bent up Bach Strad trumpets after having corrected a slightly botched silver plate job on a newly restored Yamaha trumpet for a client in Hawaii, followed with another hour in the buffing room. I had a late lunch around 5 pm, followed up with an hours packing and preparing UPS shipments. Around 8 pm I got started on a set of 5 euphoniums being restored. I addressed all the bells where I dedented, pressed smooth, belt sanded and finally spin-sanded to the point they are ready for polishing. I got home and crashed at 3 am with a back ache and ringing ears. So much easier then working on those sloppy solders and out of alignment hand-slides don't ya think?




Spin-sanding is performed on a lathe, helps to have the proper tools.


So you know where I am coming from. I was a Forman for a large music company in the 80s with a number of stores in Washington State and Oregon, 11,000 rentals and oversaw the work of a six Tech shop. The company sold a lot of stuff. I have seen pretty much all there is to see in the business of repairing band instruments. We received instruments by the truck load and yes they required set up. Guitars need to be adjusted and sometimes need fret and neck tweaking. Slides on trombones sometimes need tweaking as well. We received french horns with stuck valves that needed to be lubricated and/or maybe needed some bearing work, maybe a little but not much repair, its basically servicing the instrument prior to sale. Now I am not saying that new instruments don't ever have issues. Some times serious problems show up in the new stuff, okay, fine, stick it in the box and return it. If you work with a company that sells the cheap stuff or likes to deal in B stock gear, then yes, you will be making a lot of serious corrections but thats a whole other can of worms.

"ANY technician that does any sort of repair work spends 95% of his day fixing crap that was wrong at the factory."

Your post makes it sound like 95% of all the repair being done is correcting factory flaws. That from my extensive experience is certainly not the case. It also makes no sense as a retailer to deal in such instruments as it pretty much kills the idea of making a profit for the retail department if your just giving it to the maintenance and repair division. Not the kind of outfit i would be interested in working with.

NAPBIRT wouldn't work so hard to improve quality with their Band Instrument Council.

That NAPBIRT Band Instrument Council has been doing a bang-up job I am sure. How are things over at V. Bach?

Are you in NAPBIRT???

Thought about it, discussed it with others but could not see any truly viable reason for doing so. Its a good ''club'' that offers a lot to those who have limited resources for information or a lack of training. For me, the Technicom four times a year and partisipation in a yearly get-together somewhere in the mid-west far away from Seattle is not much of an incentive for me to participate. I know how to repair woodwinds and have trained many others, I know how to solder, perform dent work, repair valves and hand slides, polish/buff, engrave, machining, plating, run a business.......... Maybe someday?


I have work to do, lots of work to do.


Best regards,

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Seattle, WA
206.241.5767
www.oberloh.com

[Alex C]

Well that and the fact that for the most part, these are being restored by experts - not being assembled by the day help in a factory by some guy that can't wait for his shift to end.

I disagree with that comment entirely. Of course, in any line of work, profession or craft there will be those just in it for the money, but for the most part the people I've met, interacted with or hung around actually take their job with pride of the music their products produce.

I have to jump in on the side of iiipopes. I was at the Holton factory when two instruments were being assembled. I saw numerous problems in the assembly process including: someone trying to fit the valve section into the jig wrong-side up, soldering the wrong parts on a jig, bending tubing without pitch (causes a bit of a crimp, we learned), trying to solder a bent tubing with pitch in it (causing the pitch to flow out of the tube in into the horn, the bench, the floor, took an hour to clean up).

There were some marvelous craftsmen including the bell spinner (though I didn't see a tuba bell spun), the engravers and several of the line workers I watched. The problem with Holton was that it was so long between production of the big tubas that they forgot many of the finer points of assembly in the interim.

I have disassembled a couple of tubas and always find large joints which have not been soldered completely closed. Always. I always find that on the intricate soldering, some gap exists at a ferrule on the inside of a cluster of tubing that is hard to get to.

On the best of days, a line worker has to produce a certain amount of work at an acceptable level. Can you imagine how frustrated that person is after having to learn how the jig works, learn which pieces go where and redoing several joints. The quality does down. Way down. The reconstruction that we are talking about in this thread is at the "blueprint" level.

When the two tubas I followed through production were finished, one was three inches taller than the other. They both played within tolerances but I seriously doubt that anyone can say that either instrument was assembled in an artistic fashion.

[ASTuba]

Andy-
Unfortunate? I don't see a lot of slop solder here except on some of the King and Conn tubas. If your talking about doing set up on new horns, thats not really anything new and has always been a common situation, its part of the retailer's repair technician's job. I would not call that a defect, but I understand where your coming from. Minor adjustments and regulations however are part of the service that the shop is to perform on instruments arriving new from the manufacturer, its for the most part not repair.

Dan,

I see it all the time. YBB-321's with a 1/4 of the bottom bow not having solder on both parts. New Kings and Conns with terrible valves and slides. Jupiters, Blessings and other imports with badly soldered braces. I could go on. I understand that corners are cut at factories, and have no issue fixing things that break over time, but when I get a new $3,000 Buffet R-13 with a loose key on it from the factory, I get PO'ed.

Maybe so, I get to spend a lot of time fixing the mistakes of other repair shops. Let me tell you about my day Scooter (yesterday): I got to spend about three hours on the phone (woohoo), another couple of hours straightening and cleaning filthy and bent up Bach Strad trumpets after having corrected a slightly botched silver plate job on a newly restored Yamaha trumpet for a client in Hawaii, followed with another hour in the buffing room. I had a late lunch around 5 pm, followed up with an hours packing and preparing UPS shipments. Around 8 pm I got started on a set of 5 euphoniums being restored. I addressed all the bells where I dedented, pressed smooth, belt sanded and finally spin-sanded to the point they are ready for polishing. I got home and crashed at 3 am with a back ache and ringing ears. So much easier then working on those sloppy solders and out of alignment hand-slides don't ya think?

No sympathy here from me, sorry. You work for yourself, and you're doing what you feel is necessary to get things done. Hard work is a part of any small, privately owned business. Between doing my repairs that I still do, plus working a day job to help me out right now, I do work for my dad's electrical control business in the evenings, programming PLC controllers. We're all busy in our own way.

"ANY technician that does any sort of repair work spends 95% of his day fixing crap that was wrong at the factory."

Your post makes it sound like 95% of all the repair being done is correcting factory flaws. That from my extensive experience is certainly not the case. It also makes no sense as a retailer to deal in such instruments as it pretty much kills the idea of making a profit for the retail department if your just giving it to the maintenance and repair division. Not the kind of outfit i would be interested in working with.

Dan, in my shop, most of what I'm doing now is specialized work. I have learned a lot of tips on how to make instruments work better. 95% of what I do on a daily basis is to try to eliminate the disturbances in the insides of brass tubing. This is usually from poorly fit joints at the factory. I don't do restorations, because my back wouldn't allow it to happen, and I learned that there really isn't a lot of money in my area in restorations.

Are you in NAPBIRT???

Thought about it, discussed it with others but could not see any truly viable reason for doing so. Its a good ''club'' that offers a lot to those who have limited resources for information or a lack of training. For me, the Technicom four times a year and partisipation in a yearly get-together somewhere in the mid-west far away from Seattle is not much of an incentive for me to participate. I know how to repair woodwinds and have trained many others, I know how to solder, perform dent work, repair valves and hand slides, polish/buff, engrave, machining, plating, run a business.......... Maybe someday?
[/quote]

And this is where I take total offense to what you said. You are a member of the American Electroplaters and Surface Finishers Society, Inc, as you were involved in that industry correct?

Then why, as a person who owns a Band Instrument Repair Shop, wouldn't you be a member of the National Association of Professional Band Instrument Repair Technicians?

I know how to do most of the functions that allow me to be a successful and profitable repair technician, but I always strive to be the best I can be. That's why I'm a member of NAPBIRT, and I go to conferences to learn from people like Wayne Tanabe, and other truly great technicians. There are many different ways to do the same task, and if I can learn a faster, easier, better way, then I'm foolish not to listen. That way, I can make more money.

Listen, I respect you and I think you do fantastic work. When I was in Seattle, I truly wish that I could have gotten to spend some time in your shop, and see just how you repair things. But noone is perfect when it comes to this business. We're all humans. I know that I am always trying to learn more about my craft and industry.

Wishing nothing but the best,

Andy

[Rick Denney]

On the best of days, a line worker has to produce a certain amount of work at an acceptable level. Can you imagine how frustrated that person is after having to learn how the jig works, learn which pieces go where and redoing several joints. The quality does down. Way down. The reconstruction that we are talking about in this thread is at the "blueprint" level.

When the two tubas I followed through production were finished, one was three inches taller than the other. They both played within tolerances but I seriously doubt that anyone can say that either instrument was assembled in an artistic fashion.

Motorheads talk about how to rebuild engines so that they last as long as what the factory original put together. They apply detail of consideration approaching the mythical black arts, and still their engines fail untimely. Why? Because when we blueprint stuff, we don't necessarily understand what is really important. The factory may not be all that precise, but they are accurate. I laugh when I realize that the engines people argue about endlessly were originally assembled by factory line workers, few of whom were or would care to be artistic mechanics.

My Holton's first-valve branch was a quarter inch out of parallel, making it a real challenge to remove the slide. When Lee took it apart, he found that the factory guy had not squared up the tube after bending it to line up with the crook in the first valve, but just stuffed it into the ferrule and soldered away. When Lee squared it up, guess what? The slide was aligned. But it played just fine.

I doubt that doing most of the things being contemplated would have any effect on how well the instrument plays. What makes a great Holton great is its liveliness, and I think that's a function of zero-stress assembly. Only a few achieved that. Thus, I think it's possible for a Holton bowser to become great when restored by a master, but I don't think it's likely a master's work will turn a great Holton into a bowser.

Rick "who would be a little nervous about replacing the bell, however" Denney

[Rick Denney]

And this is where I take total offense to what you said. You are a member of the American Electroplaters and Surface Finishers Society, Inc, as you were involved in that industry correct?

Then why, as a person who owns a Band Instrument Repair Shop, wouldn't you be a member of the National Association of Professional Band Instrument Repair Technicians?

Andy, I predict you'll revise this opinion and moderate your views as you get older. You'll begin to realize that most of these organizations start with the intent of providing mutual support (needed), but then grow to the point where they have professional staff, who then sit around thinking of ways to grow further and hire more staff (unneeded) at the expense of the members.

It is certainly true in my profession. I find myself competing for some work against the professional organization to which I belong. Mutual support, indeed.

A professional society provides two opportunities to professionals: 1.) To receive benefits from other professionals in the same field, and 2.) to provide benefits to other professionals in the same field. The purpose of feeding the paychecks of the society's paid babysitters isn't, I find, persuasive in attracting members. Neither is the prospect of a badge to wear (or a plaque on the wall) unless it is achieved by demanding standards and testing and requires significant accountability that is valuable in the marketplace. From someone like Dan's point of view, the only one of the above that has any value to him would be to provide service to others--he already has all the work he wants and therefore doesn't really need support and doesn't have to demonstrate anything. He probably figures there are better ways to support the profession.

Rick "Fellow, Institute of Transportation Engineers, and who cares?" Denney

[trseaman]

I hate to jump in the middle of this but...

Neither of you have to defend or prove what you do... You both experience the same things but in different ways. You live in different parts of the country and your work, while similar is really different. Being a member of NAPBIRT isn't important to me. I'm certainly not going to make that a requirement of my tuba tech. I want my horn fixed right the first time and if I take my horn to an experienced repairman, it'll happen...

Andy you left Joplin before I could get my horn to you... Now I may have to drive to Bloke's!

Tim

[Tubaryan12]

What Rick said....

Ditto. I got hit with that reality after my 1st and probably last ASC convention.

Tubaryan "got some good info there, but definitely not worth the cost" 12