xyz

[imperialbari]

[Steve Inman]

Interesting plumbing! An equal source of amusement is that the extra tight loop you have listed as the "high pitch to low pitch conversion" also would seem to effectively render the water key useless without first spinning the horn 360 degrees.

Your guess that the short vertical slide attached to the 4th valve is part of the open bugle is what I had as my first guess BEFORE I read your description. So there is another vote for that option. Too bad they could have found a way to add it onto the 4th valve casing but shifted over to the other side of the horn so you could pull / push it with your right hand thumb while playing. That would have been a helpful feature.

But the more I ponder this extra slide, the more impossible it seems that it could actually be connected to ANYTHING in either the open bugle or the 4th valve tubing, based on its position on the casing.

So I think we are still in agreement -- this is quite a puzzle!

Cheers,

[Highams]

This is a prototype Hawkes 'Dictor' without the engraving on the bell.

http://s91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/ ... =itea5.jpg

what you have to remember is that Boosey had patented the compensating system, so other brands offered alternatives, which is what this is.

It means this is only compensated on the 4th. valve. When used it gives low C sharp (tc) instead of D as normal.
So using alternate fingerings, there is enough extra tubing to play chromatically down to the pedal C in tune.

It works very well considering, I use mine a lot, but you have to remember to use 1 & 3 for D, (which is reasonably good) and 4 for D flat/C sharp!

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=709542&t=3588

CB

[tbn.al]

The fact that the short 4th valve loop has a pull ring indicates a tuning slide. I don't see any other slide in the 4th loop except the main tuning slide. Could it be that the short tube is simply a tuning mechanism activated only when the 4th is depressed? This would indicate some unusual valve paths inside the 4th, but maybe that is why this setup is no longer used.

[imperialbari]

[windshieldbug]

Klaus,
I think that you will find it, not in the 3 valve block, but in the 3rd valve tubing, which passes by the 4th valve!

[Kevin Hendrick]

Klaus,
I think that you will find it, not in the 3 valve block, but in the 3rd valve tubing, which passes by the 4th valve![/img]

I think you nailed it, Mike -- there's a cosmetic piece ("cover"?) over the section where the 3rd valve tubing dives into and comes up out of the 4th valve, so that -- from the front -- it looks like a straight tube all the way up to the valve. I suspect that, if you pulled the 3rd valve slide, that leg would be much shorter than the other one.

[Highams]

Yes that's right, enabling the usual sharp combination of 1&3 to be used well in tune.

CB

[pg]

Interesting - if its the 3rd valve tubing that feeds it, then its a compensating system that only compensates the 3+4 combination.

So, CB, what are the fingerings (going chromatically down) that you use?

--paul;

[imperialbari]

x y z

[Rick Denney]

Klaus,
I think that you will find it, not in the 3 valve block, but in the 3rd valve tubing, which passes by the 4th valve!

Yes, that's what I was thinking. I saw a bulge from the back where the fourth piston casing crosses behind the third-valve loop. Then, the view from the front makes more sense. It looks as though the third valve branch goes through the fourth valve secondary loop, with a false tube across the front that hides the branch. The fourth valve therefore makes the third valve tubing shorter by what appears to be a 3/4 tone, which provides fingering options in the fourth-valve register a semitone above what we would normally play.

Rick "who thinks spinning a euph is easier than spinning a Holton BAT" Denney

[imperialbari]

x y z

[iiipopes]

Indeed. It's called an ascending valve. One of the more recent applications of it is Yamaha has or had a student trombone that had a trigger, but instead of adding the usual tubing for an F attachment, it was engineered to subtract the tubing needed to take the horn from Bb to C so young beginning trombonists whose arms had not grown sufficiently don't have to struggle with 6th & 7th position.

Great idea, but since the normal position of the rotor is "on" instead of "off," with the tight loop of tubing, I can't help but wonder about it being stuffy. The .508/.525 dual bore slide might be nice to have for a lead jazz chair, however!

[Rick Denney]

I was slow in getting the idea. A bug did the trick for me. So now I oppose any engineering re-trafficking a true understanding down a dead-end road. Rick still may be residing, but in this case he was no genius.

Certainly not a quick genius. I was a day late and a dollar short.

But I don't think I can tell whether depressing the valve closes off that small branch or opens it up without looking at the piston itself. What am I missing?

Rick "who saw the knuckles but not the underlying ports" Denney

[imperialbari]

x y z

[iiipopes]

Remove the 3rd & 4th valve and have a good look at the ports to help get an abstract idea of how they transition the valve casing, both up & down?

[imperialbari]

x y z

[Highams]

Had our first rehearsal back at the BBC last night and on the back of an old overture was this advert, just for you!

http://s91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/ ... ictor4.jpg

CB

[imperialbari]

x y z

[iiipopes]

Sorry, I thought you had the instrument in your possession.