Instrument builders, I have a question for you.

tubafatness · Post by **tubafatness** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:12 am

Since the end of last summer or so, I've been deeply interested in the other forms of intonation other than equal temperament. My question is would it be possible to build or modify a tuba that utilizes a tuning system such as just intonation? That, or perhaps even Harry Partch's 11-limit just intonation, (wich yields about 43 tones.) I don't know what the practical uses would be, but if would definitely be a really interesting instrument to have, and would probably have a very unique sound. Thanks for any help on this question.
Aaron Hynds

ThomasP · Post by **ThomasP** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:03 pm

I don't think you can make any instrument that will play "just" intonation. The whole purpose of Just Intonation is that a notes pitch changes depending on what part of a chord it's in, or how you want a certain dissonance to sound.

Let's take middle C for example...

Build a C Major chord on that C and the C should be the reference tone (one pitch)

Build an Ab Major chord with that C and the same C will need to be lowered a little bit.

Build a D7 (dominant) chord using the same C as the 7th. You will need to lower the C further to produce a "Just" chord.

That's just 2 examples of adjusting. There are more. How would you make an instrument capable of doing that?

tubaguy9 · Post by **tubaguy9** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:09 pm

ThomasP wrote:I don't think you can make any instrument that will play "just" intonation. The whole purpose of Just Intonation is that a notes pitch changes depending on what part of a chord it's in, or how you want a certain dissonance to sound.

Let's take middle C for example...

Build a C Major chord on that C and the C should be the reference tone (one pitch)

Build an Ab Major chord with that C and the same C will need to be lowered a little bit.

Build a D7 (dominant) chord using the same C as the 7th. You will need to lower the C further to produce a "Just" chord.

That's just 2 examples of adjusting. There are more. How would you make an instrument capable of doing that?

That's very true...Way to fix it: Pull slides, or have this thing:

Price: $54,000. Enough Said.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:20 pm

tubaguy9 wrote: That's very true...Way to fix it: Pull slides, or have this thing:

Price: $54,000. Enough Said.

Funny! Is that a Cerveny? Now THAT's even funnier!

tubafatness · Post by **tubafatness** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:54 pm

I guess I wasn't too clear in my original post. What I meant by "just intonation" was not the tuning system that adapts to the chord, (as ThomasP pointed out.) I was using that more as an example of the overall concept. What I was really trying to ask is whether it is feasible to build a tuba that plays more than just a "regular" semitone, or combinations thereof. For instance, instead of only being able to play 12 tones in an octave, (the chromatic scale,) this tuba would be able to play a greater number of tones, similar to many of the instruments that Harry Partch built. I know there would have to be a complete overhaul of parts of the tuba design, that's why I was asking for any help from instrument builders. Hope that this clears things up.
Aaron H.
P.S., I'm not really looking to build this myself, I'm just curious.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:04 pm

I agree with Robert. It's all in the ear, not the horn. Orchestral playing requires several temperaments. used situationally. And as with ANY other instrument (string, woodwind, brass, or tympani) the basis lies in one's ear, and the ability to ADJUST to what is needed.

Thus, like a trombone, the ability to listen and adjust are paramount. On a tuba, the optimal setup is one that allows you to hear, control, and adjust if required.

Which is one reason that I enjoyed playing my slant-rotor Marzan so much. One played it rather like a trombone (with the main tuning slide facing up), therefore infinite tuning was possible if one could hear and then play it.

ThomasP · Post by **ThomasP** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:05 pm

http://www.marcinkiewicz.com/instrument ... ertone.htm

It's been done with the trumpet, and apparently only requires one valve lowering what ever you're playing a quarter-tone.

There have been other quarter-tone instruments made as well.

Instead of 12 semi-tones in an octave, you now would have 24 quarter-tones.

tubaguy9 · Post by **tubaguy9** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:07 pm

TubaTinker wrote:
tubaguy9 wrote: That's very true...Way to fix it: Pull slides, or have this thing:

Price: $54,000. Enough Said.
Funny! Is that a Cerveny? Now THAT's even funnier!

It is a Cerveny! The place I found this picture was at http://dalehale.com/cooltubas/cooltubas.htm. There's actually a link to this site in the clip art section of TubeNet. Just to be the regular, nice tubenet guy...

tubaguy9 · Post by **tubaguy9** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:09 pm

TubaTinker wrote:
tubaguy9 wrote: That's very true...Way to fix it: Pull slides, or have this thing:

Price: $54,000. Enough Said.
Funny! Is that a Cerveny? Now THAT's even funnier!

Oh yeah...and the funny thing is that a lot of the valves look like they don't go anywhere...Could you fix that, TubaTinker?

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:09 pm

ThomasP wrote:It's been done with the trumpet

...and it's been done with the tuba! What do you think those "flat whole step" valves do!?

ThomasP · Post by **ThomasP** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:35 pm

Historically speaking, WESTERN music developed around a 12 semi-tone per octave system.

Other traditions in other cultures have quarter tones, sixth tones, and even twelfth tones.

Alois HÃ¡ba is known for composing for these different systems. And apparently one of the only people able to recognize the other crazy microtonal systems he derived.

Music we know is Semi-Tonal.

Music from the Eastern World is very different and contains other microtonal systems.

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:37 pm

Usually we only use Eastern music for Easter

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:05 pm

tubaguy9 wrote:
TubaTinker wrote:
tubaguy9 wrote: That's very true...Way to fix it: Pull slides, or have this thing:

Price: $54,000. Enough Said.
Funny! Is that a Cerveny? Now THAT's even funnier!
Oh yeah...and the funny thing is that a lot of the valves look like they don't go anywhere...Could you fix that, TubaTinker?

Sure! I'd use it for parts!

tubafatness · Post by **tubafatness** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:16 pm

tuben wrote:
Seriously, show me how many pieces call for quarter tones, and then show me how often these works are performed. THEN ask if building/buying an instrument just for that circumstance is worth it.

Historically, music developed around the 12 tone scale, so why start monkeying with that now?

Robert Coulter
(quarter tones = gimmick)

I know that there aren't many pieces written for the quarter-tone system, especially for a quarter-tone tuba. I wrote in my original post that it would be a fun instrument, if not one that is used all the time. Plus, I think it would yield some very interesting sounds and effects. No, I don't think quarter tones are a gimmick, as they are as much a part of the musical language as the 12-tone scale. And, if anyone thinks that a quarter tone instrument is useless or a gimmick, try telling that to Don Ellis, Charles Ives, or all the other composers and musicians who have openly embraced this sytem (yes, I know they're dead, I'm just making a point.)

tubaguy9 · Post by **tubaguy9** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:05 pm

TubaTinker wrote:
tubaguy9 wrote:
TubaTinker wrote: Funny! Is that a Cerveny? Now THAT's even funnier!
Oh yeah...and the funny thing is that a lot of the valves look like they don't go anywhere...Could you fix that, TubaTinker?
Sure! I'd use it for parts!

No, I said can you fix it, not rip it apart for parts!

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:32 pm

tubaguy9 wrote:
TubaTinker wrote:
tubaguy9 wrote: Oh yeah...and the funny thing is that a lot of the valves look like they don't go anywhere...Could you fix that, TubaTinker?
Sure! I'd use it for parts!
No, I said can you fix it, not rip it apart for parts!

You want it spayed!?

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:46 pm

richland tuba 01 wrote:would it be spayed or neutered for a 53 valve tuba?

I think that it would play nuetered intonation...

tubaguy9 · Post by **tubaguy9** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:40 pm

windshieldbug wrote:
richland tuba 01 wrote:would it be spayed or neutered for a 53 valve tuba?
I think that it would play nuetered intonation...

I think the horn is asexual...it can reproduce by itself

Makes Tenor Tubas...

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:01 pm

Marcinkiewicz makes quarter tone instruments:

http://www.marcinkiewicz.com/instrument ... ertone.htm

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:27 pm

tuben wrote:
tubafatness wrote:
tuben wrote:
Seriously, show me how many pieces call for quarter tones, and then show me how often these works are performed. THEN ask if building/buying an instrument just for that circumstance is worth it.

Historically, music developed around the 12 tone scale, so why start monkeying with that now?

Robert Coulter
(quarter tones = gimmick)
I know that there aren't many pieces written for the quarter-tone system, especially for a quarter-tone tuba. I wrote in my original post that it would be a fun instrument, if not one that is used all the time. Plus, I think it would yield some very interesting sounds and effects. No, I don't think quarter tones are a gimmick, as they are as much a part of the musical language as the 12-tone scale. And, if anyone thinks that a quarter tone instrument is useless or a gimmick, try telling that to Don Ellis, Charles Ives, or all the other composers and musicians who have openly embraced this sytem (yes, I know they're dead, I'm just making a point.)

Don Ellis is not long dead. He had a fair amount of popularity in Jazz circles in the early 70's. I liked him and his creativity did not involve screeching high notes.