Instrument builders, I have a question for you.

[pulseczar]

Some cool news that I just recently learned.

I'm not sure if it's exactly a quarter tone, but some Bb french horns have a fourth valve because when it's 'stopped' it gets sharp, so horn players depress the fourth valve to lower the pitch of the note.

[Chuck(G)]

I'm not sure if it's exactly a quarter tone, but some Bb french horns have a fourth valve because when it's 'stopped' it gets sharp, so horn players depress the fourth valve to lower the pitch of the note.

Some F horns have it too. Not long ago, I worked on a Sansone 5-valve single F.

[Dan Schultz]

.... Not long ago, I worked on a Sansone 5-valve single F.

Hey, Chuck! I have one of those Lorenzo Sansone horns (4 rotor) with the tuning slides reversed (you know... the Sansone 'better idea'). Is it worth anything?

[windshieldbug]

hmm...I have one of those as well - silver plated. You can put mine with yours, make a pair, and ask $250 more...

Well, then I guess I ain't gettin' $100 for my "Dr Sansone" mouthpiece (sniff)

[Rick Denney]

...What I was really trying to ask is whether it is feasible to build a tuba that plays more than just a "regular" semitone, or combinations thereof....

The answer is: Yes. It's all in the taper design. But it will take just as much effort as it takes to provide equal temperament. And that is apparently somewhat more than many manufacturers will provide, or somewhat more than can be tolerated on the basis of the resulting sound. That resulting sound depends on a range of well-tuned harmonics, and what makes those well-tuned is their contribution to the sound, not their conformance to any particular temperament.

But I have a question. What is the maximum departure, in cents, from equal temperament that you envision? If it's more than about 15 cents, I submit that the only tools you need are a tuning slide that you can reach and an ear that tells you when you have hit the target.

The ear is the more difficult issue.

Conical brasses have wide pitch variability. That's why it's so important to hear the correct pitch and to hear the desired intervals before playing. No tuba will do that for you.

Rick "who would much rather be in tune with an ensemble than with a 'system'" Denney

[Rick Denney]

...If it's more than about 15 cents, I submit...

That should read "less".

Rick "really wishing the Edit button would return" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

.... Not long ago, I worked on a Sansone 5-valve single F.

Hey, Chuck! I have one of those Lorenzo Sansone horns (4 rotor) with the tuning slides reversed (you know... the Sansone 'better idea'). Is it worth anything?

They're pretty sturdy and okay for student instruments I guess, although the keywork isn't really that ergonomic (short spatulas, mechanical linkages). It was lucky that I was to make a new thumb trigger for it (another ergonomic shortcoming). The old one's just chrome-plated pot metal.

The customer I did the work for was a student of old Lorenzo, so it was special to her.

[MaryAnn]

I'd personally love to get a hold of a five-valve Sansone Bb horn (not the four valve, although that might be ok too, depending on whether the 4th valve is a stop valve or an F valve.)

I have a three-valve Sansone Bb, with a slightly bent leadpipe, that I paid $150 for with case, that plays as well and sounds as good as any Bb I've had my hands on. I have a four-valve Holton that looks much better and plays like crap, with weird cross fingerings required for mid-range intonation problems, and embouchure adjustment to get a decent tone out of it. It is currently a shiny wall hanger.

MA

[tubafatness]

...What I was really trying to ask is whether it is feasible to build a tuba that plays more than just a "regular" semitone, or combinations thereof....

The answer is: Yes. It's all in the taper design. But it will take just as much effort as it takes to provide equal temperament. And that is apparently somewhat more than many manufacturers will provide, or somewhat more than can be tolerated on the basis of the resulting sound. That resulting sound depends on a range of well-tuned harmonics, and what makes those well-tuned is their contribution to the sound, not their conformance to any particular temperament.

But I have a question. What is the maximum departure, in cents, from equal temperament that you envision? If it's more than about 15 cents, I submit that the only tools you need are a tuning slide that you can reach and an ear that tells you when you have hit the target.

The ear is the more difficult issue.

Conical brasses have wide pitch variability. That's why it's so important to hear the correct pitch and to hear the desired intervals before playing. No tuba will do that for you.

Rick "who would much rather be in tune with an ensemble than with a 'system'" Denney

What I really envisioned was a tuba that could play within the confines of both the semi-tone and quarter-tone scale. Maybe have an attachment that temporarily drops the tone, (although I know that would be a nightmare to build and tune.) I was just wondering if it would be possible to build such a thing. The attachment, if it is feasible, would pretty much be about half the length or effect of the second valve on any standard tuba. Then again, I'm no tuba builder, so I don't know if that is even possible.

[Allen]

I always thought of temperament as a compromise tuning for keyboard (or fretted) instruments to minimize how much they are out of tune. Different eras and different kinds of music have their own unique requirements for compromise. The modern Western era's compromise is equal temperament.

Players of orchestral and band instruments have no need of temperaments; they can actually play in tune. At least, that's the ideal, and I have even heard it now and then.

If you want to experience quarter-tone playing, go hear some Middle-Eastern band play. Even the clarinet player bends the notes into quarters! Playing in quarter tones seems to be very much due to musical training in that tradition, not just the choice of instrument.

Cheers,
Allen

[SplatterTone]

If you want to experience quarter-tone playing, go hear some Middle-Eastern band play.

Or American jazz. Except they don't call it quarter-tone playing.

[Rick Denney]

What I really envisioned was a tuba that could play within the confines of both the semi-tone and quarter-tone scale.

Quarter tones? That doesn't sound like a temperament issue, but more like a scale issue. Do you want to be able to play a quarter-tone scale as for eastern music? Or add quarter-tone trills and so forth? If so, I would find a six-valve rotary tuba to start with--one that has a really long main slide, or a horizontal main slide that could be turned vertical. Both 5 and 6 controlled by the left hand would be best. Shorten the 5th and 6th valves so that one is a quartertone valve and the other a semitone valve (one of them will already be a flat semitone valve, so shorten the other one.) The quartertone valve will be the same length as a euphonium second valve, so if the tubing is fat you probably won't have the option of a tuning slide.

Link the quartertone valve so that the air path always goes through it. When you press the valve, it restores the regular path. You'll shorten the main slide to adjust it so that it will still be in tune.

That way, the fifth valve (quartertone) will raise the pitch a quarter tone, and the fifth and sixth valves together will lower the pitch a quartertone. You'll still have the basic four valves that work conventionally. The always-on quartertone valve will add a bit of stuffiness, but about the same as an old-fashioned tuning crook.

That would work a lot faster than using a slide, which you'll need if you want to use it for music that uses a quartertone scale.

Rick "thinking anything's possible if you have enough money" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

I don't get it--why stop at quarter-tones?

http://www.72note.com/

On the other hand, by the time you finished your scale warmup routine, it'd be time for bed:

http://www.72note.com/MIDI/Rick/miditestcorrected.midi

[Lee Stofer]

Rick Denney hit the nail upon the head - basically anything you want can be built, provided you are willing to pay for it. Actually, the Kanstul 5/4 BB tuba has a "tune-any-note" main tuning slide which would probably make it feasible to play a quarter-tone scale.

Otherwise, the easiest way to experiment with different scales would be either with a 6-valve F-tuba, or a contrabass trombone. The contrabass trombone would theoretically be able to play the smallest microtones, and a standard 6-valve F-tuba should be able to be tuned in such a way as to render a usable quarter-tone scale.

[iiipopes]

Hmmpf. On my Besson, anything below BBb can be lipped up or down almost a full semitone, and anything from BBb up about an octave and a half at least a semitone. On the old H B Jay Eb I'm tinkering with. I can play just about any note, make that any just about any pitch, from open Eb on down to true pedal Eb with just about any fingering combination.

Take a lesson from Indian sitar: sitars have 12 semitone frets per octave just like guitars, but are arched above the neck so the player can adjust intonation with finger pressure on the strings, including quarter tones and any temperament you can imagine or devise.

It's much easier to just get a tuba that has wide slots and has reachable slides and do it yourself than to unnecessarily complicate the mechanism.

There are those cynical orchestral players who, when playing with strings, would say they have to do that anyway as part of the job description!

[tubafatness]

Thanks for the helpful replies. I had a feeling it could be done, but I just don't have the money right now to build such a thing, (even if I could build tubas.) I guess that is something to put on the list of things to do someday.

[iiipopes]

I mistyped, even after proofreading and editing text for a good two minutes before posting:

"and anything from BBb up for about an octave and a half can be lipped a quarter tone..."

Hey, Sean, PLEASE at least give us back the edit button, if not the delete button!

[windshieldbug]

I guess that is something to put on the list of things to do someday.

If you really mean it, you can start working on this right now, which will mean much more than any build project:

[iiipopes]

Hey bloke -- thanks. I guess with my bifocals that's what I'll have to do.

I still want the edit button back.

[MaryAnn]

I hear quarter-tone music played any time I want; all I have to do is go to one of the amateur orchestra or band concerts or rehearsals in town. Problem is, the composers of those pieces being played didn't intend them to have quarter tones in them.


MA