Indian made Besson Euphs

[euphdude]

I was browsing Norman's website (in the UK) the other day for Besson spring dampers (they're standard on the old Besson pro instruments but you can use them on other instruments). I saw they had a very curious Besson euphonium labeled the Besson 1065-2. I asked them about it and they confirmed that it is Indian made. Has anyone out there actually played one of these? If so what did you think?

[evan]

If the corporation in charge of building your doorbell (or the euphonium) was willing to pay for skilled labor, I'm sure the products coming from India would be fine. The fundamental problem here is that skilled labor is apparently too expensive, even in India.

[Dan Schultz]

I have one of the Indian 'Tri-Star' 3 + 1 euphs (somewhat of a Besson copy) hanging from the ceiling in my shop so I can show customers what not to waste their money on. If you've ever seen any of the flea market candle holders and some of the other trash that is made in Indian brass foundries, you might get some idea of what the threads in the valve caps and the fit of the slides look like!

I'm not saying that ALL the stuff made in India is trash. There are probably some very good craftsment there. Somewhere.

[Bondejohnson]

A friend of mine is a brass repair guy. During numerous conversations he has mentioned that he has done repairs on Chinese and Indian made horns. He says stay away. His comments on quality control , tolerances and playability of these instruments has all been negative.

Just what I've heard...

Regards,

Bonde

[pianolance]

Is the Besson from India a product of the real Besson company or is an Indian manufacturer just using the name in hopes of reeling some unsuspecting customers in?

[Dan Schultz]

Is the Besson from India a product of the real Besson company or is an Indian manufacturer just using the name in hopes of reeling some unsuspecting customers in?

Some student-level horns bearing the Besson name are being built in India. I understand that had been going on even before Besson closed their operations in England and sold out to Buffet-Crampon. The pro-model Bessons are being built by Meinl. Maybe Pat Stuckmeyer will chime in here since he's played the new pro-level Bessons euphs.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread... just because a horn is made in India, China, or wherever doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. There are good craftsmen all over the World but their instruments are going to be just as expensive as other pro-line instruments.

[euphdude]

Is the Besson from India a product of the real Besson company or is an Indian manufacturer just using the name in hopes of reeling some unsuspecting customers in?

Yes, these are made by "Besson" and are being distributed by some of the more reputable shops in England. I don't know what kind of relationship this Indian outfit has with Buffet however. I can only guess that they're made by this Indian factory for the REAL Besson. Price for this 4 valve non-compensating horn was around ~$1400 US.

[ufoneum]

When Besson was sold to The Music Group a while back, there were many changes to their business. First, they began to outsource many of their parts to India and other eastern countries. Now, this was not a huge deal because they were only making parts - not putting together horns. The horns were still put together in London. Soon after this, in an effort to save money, they began to outsource their assembly as well. This was all in an effort to save on the cost.

Since Buffet has purchased the Besson name six months ago, a lot of really great things have happened. First, all the old tools that were used to make pre-2005 Besson horns are now NOT USED. They now belong to a company called Schreiber, who was an outsource agent for old-Besson. They, Schreiber, are now making horns under the name 'York'. So, Besson has retooled their entire production line from the top. Starting two months ago with the Prestige, they added the Sovereign 967/8 to the lineup last month. The eventual goal is to have all Besson brass to be made and assembled by JAMusik (Meinl) in Germany.

These instruments are really top notch. If you are in a music store looking at a Besson brass instrument right now - BEWARE. It is probably an old-Besson instrument, not one of these nice new ones. The new Besson has a Meinl valve set and is absolutely one of the best instruments out there right now. I own a Besson Prestige, which I purchased in 2000 before Besson was ever sold to The Music Group. I think that these new Besson instruments are even better than before the company changed hands.

I hope this sheds some light on the subject, but for more information check out Steve Mead's website - he has a nice page with news and information about Besson and what is going on with production: http://www.euphonium.net

Hope this helps!

- Pat Stuckemeyer

[tubiker]

A friend of mine is a brass repair guy. During numerous conversations he has mentioned that he has done repairs on Chinese and Indian made horns. He says stay away. His comments on quality control , tolerances and playability of these instruments has all been negative.

The Chinese have learned to make some darn nice violins in not so many years. All they need materials, tools, and someone to teach them how. Sadly, it won't be long before there will be some awesome horns at some great prices.

Pete

Spot on

I've just got hold of some Chinese built Trumpets and Euph's - the quality is beginning to improve noticeably and the pricing is such that before long the European manufacturers are going to be out of business as we know it. Retailers are giving the Chinese a specification, then samples pass back and forth until agreement is reached over the spec, quality level and pricing.

The Chinese are getting very savvy, and as a result of various trade/political agreements that have been made by Western Goverments, containers are landing by the ship load with goods at the lower end of consumer markets putting old industries out of business.

Change.................

Andrew M

[Lee Stofer]

Indeed, there is tsunami-sized change occurring in the instrument manufacturing business, mostly at the lower end of the market. That is why it was a stroke of genius when Kanstul decided to quit making student-level instruments and concentrated on building pro-quality instruments. In that way, they are avoiding direct competetion with the Asian market, and their strategy seems to be working.

One consideration is that Chinese-made goods on the average went up in price by 30% last year in the US, so some Chinese tubas are being advertised at prices similar to what St. Petersburg tubas were a decade ago. As their tubas and euphoniums become better and their country's standard of living rises, as it is already, their prices will continue to rise. I don't think there is a clear parallel in the manufacture of stringed instruments. The Asian stringed instruments are quite a bit better than the brass instruments, but that is because violin-making is not nearly as high-tech as brass instrument manufacturing. On a violin or string bass, parts must fit each other, but small variations are not the end of the world. On a brass instrument, many machined parts must be made to
2-to-4 ten-thousandths of an inch tolerances, and you cannot take sandpaper or a scraper and fit it, or fill the difference with hide glue and varnish it.

The market has a way of eventually evening-out the playing field, so I think there will always be newcomers offering brass instruments at the low-end of the spectrum, with questionable quality. There are scores of instrument brand names from the 1930's-'60's that are long gone, and many more will go by the wayside, while there are others that have stood the test of time. Since the best instruments are the costliest to make and are not bought by the masses, the small shops are the most likely to survive the Asian musical instrument invasion.

Back to the Indian-made Besson - I would probably be willing to make minor play-condition repairs to such an instrument, but don't expect me or anyone else to restore the instrument in the future, because it is like small, inexpensive cars from the East, made to be used and then junked.

[Alex C]

I saw they had a very curious Besson euphonium labeled the Besson 1065-2. I asked them about it and they confirmed that it is Indian made. Has anyone out there actually played one of these? If so what did you think?

I talked with some Besson former insiders at Mid-West and got some info. One of the insurmountable problems with Indian Bessons is that the workmen were trained at the British factory.

The British workers there KNEW they were training their replacements and were not happy about it. So what did they do? They trained the Indians with incorrect procedures. The Indian Bessons were destined to play like crap.

Doorbell aside, I have played two Indian made instruments that changed my perspective, if not my opinion. There was a student line tuba which compared with almost any 4/4 BBb tuba on the market. Certainly acceptable for most college bands.

I also played an Indian euphonium which was easily competative with the best manufacturers, not just on a school level. The pitch was so good that some people would trade in their upper line instruments just to forget the pitch adjustments eupher's have to make. The sound was very good. It wan't a Willson... or was it?

Both instruments were well made. The bells had a good sound with tapped on the edge, nothing tinny about the brass in either one.

I'm not prepared to name either manufacturer because this involves only two instruments but if I found other examples I might be willing to go out on a limb. One thing for sure, "the times, they are a'changing" for instrument manufactuers and the customers who buy their products.

[prototypedenNIS]

Besson's trumpets from India were ok, but the plating wasn't that good and the bell materials were too thin.

Aside from Besson trumpets, I have yet to see an Indian made instrument with a probable claim to quality.

Note Chrome plating on Tri-Stars!