Instrument overblown too easily...

[tubaguy9]

Does anyone know how to possibly beef up a tuba to where it's harder to overblow without having a major surgery done on it? For me, I have an old Miraphone (if you can't tell by the signature) that is overblown too easily for me, and therefore, I'd like to see if there's a way of changing it.

Also, I don't want to have to change mouthpieces for it.

[SplatterTone]

On this same topic, maybe somebody can clarify something for me. My understanding of the horn is that it is nothing more than a resonant acoustic coupler. Therefore, GIGO. And, in absence of something being broken, the converse holds: GOGI. Hence, "overblown" refers to lips rather than horn.

I can understand that some horn designs are more efficient at acoustic coupling so that one will be satisfied with the loudness before pushing one's embouchure past the blatt point. But it is always one's embouchure that got overblown, not the horn.

Scientific explanations to the contrary are welcome.

[WoodSheddin]

Play the horn where it goes and where you want it to go. If it plays really bright at louder dynamics then master that timbre and embrace it. It will have uses.

For other sounds you might need a different horn or mouthpiece or both.

[Søren]

Some people seem to and weight to the mouthpiece to help them in a situation like this.

As with a lot of other things, I have never understood that.

[MartyNeilan]

Don Harry used to solder half round strips of metal on the bells and sometimes inside bottom bow of Cervenys to address this. Many others copied suit on this. Soldering an additional brace between the top bow and bell (aka Waler Hilgers) is another approach. A bigger leadpipe is another solution - 188 and even 190 leadpipes are a common swap for 186's. A heavier and/or larger mouthpiece will also affect this. Many switched to the 2165 in the quest for the horn that cannot be overblown with often mixed results.
Over the years, though, in my personal experience I have found that 90% of it is how you use your air. If you "push hard" then the horn will break up. If you relax and use larger quantities of slow air the horn will sound very different than if you are using a screamin' lead style of fast high pressure air. I wish I had realized this more when I was younger and butchered some nice horns.

You also didn't mention how old "old" is. Many of the early Mirafones from the late 60's - early 70's were virtually impossible to overblow, compared to some of the 80's edge machines.

[brianf]

You are looking for a hardware solution to a software problem.

How about using less air pressure and more air flow?

[iiipopes]

Try a mouthpiece with a smaller throat.

[jonesbrass]

Lots of good comments here. As someone who also plays a Miraphone, I have to say it's a matter of control. First, you have to have a sound concept (or sound concepts) in your head. One of the things I like about the Miraphone is that it is a tonally flexible instrument. For certain composers and playing situations, that bright edge to louder dynamics is very useful, but you have to woodshed enough to be able to control it. Rather than focus too much on the technical "how to" make the sound, focus on hearing the sound you want in your head, and then getting that sound out of the horn. It takes time. Just my $0.02, if its even worth that much. Good luck.

[tbn.al]

Most everyone seems to think it is a software issue and I have to agree. I have a very old, very small, Bielefelder tuba that I was having the same problem with. I asked Michael Moore of the Atlanta Symphony to play a rehearsal on an outside gig with it as I played the bass trombone part next to him. Wallah! Huge sound, no breaking up, etc. Long story short, it's not usually the horn.

[tubaguy9]

Don Harry used to solder half round strips of metal on the bells and sometimes inside bottom bow of Cervenys to address this. Many others copied suit on this. Soldering an additional brace between the top bow and bell (aka Waler Hilgers) is another approach. A bigger leadpipe is another solution - 188 and even 190 leadpipes are a common swap for 186's. A heavier and/or larger mouthpiece will also affect this. Many switched to the 2165 in the quest for the horn that cannot be overblown with often mixed results.
Over the years, though, in my personal experience I have found that 90% of it is how you use your air. If you "push hard" then the horn will break up. If you relax and use larger quantities of slow air the horn will sound very different than if you are using a screamin' lead style of fast high pressure air. I wish I had realized this more when I was younger and butchered some nice horns.

You also didn't mention how old "old" is. Many of the early Mirafones from the late 60's - early 70's were virtually impossible to overblow, compared to some of the 80's edge machines.

The Mirafone that I have is from 1971. I know that when I use a larger horn, however, it doesn't overblow like mine...But thanks so far for the suggestions...

[MikeMason]

the whole purpose of tubenet is to find hardware solutions to software problems.that way you don't have to waste all that time practicing

[iiipopes]

Don Harry used to solder half round strips of metal on the bells and sometimes inside bottom bow of Cervenys to address this.

But Marty, not all of us are 6' 6" and almost 300lb HE-MEN. I doubt most mere mortals would require such modifications to their instruments.

RC
(98lb weakling)

No, but a couple of well placed pieces of golfer's lead tape to damp overresonances can do about the same job and is much less expensive and much less noticable. And reversable.

[Rick Denney]

The Mirafone that I have is from 1971. I know that when I use a larger horn, however, it doesn't overblow like mine...But thanks so far for the suggestions...

I have to tell you that this is a coveted vintage of Miraphone. A well-known collector just purchased one only a little older from BaltoBrass at the Army conference.

Several times I have put a smaller instrument to my lips and made ugly sounds on it. A blatty, wide sound on a small tuba is caused by the same thing as a fuzzy, airy, woofy sound on a large tuba. The cause is not enough air power. Air power is the ability to move large amounts of air at low pressure, versus small amounts at high pressure. Those little cigarette-lighter inflaters can reach 150 or even 250 psi, but they move only a tiny bit of air. Conversely, a 5-horsepower compressor may produce only 120 psi, but it will produce it at 12 cubic feet per minute. That's what I mean by air power.

I don't like a fuzzy, woofy sound any better than a blatty sound. I've found that doing what it takes to produce a clearer, more focused sound on a big tuba has made it easier to produce a bigger, rounder tone on a small tuba.

When I bought my Yamaha 621 (much smaller than any old Miraphone 186), I found that I needed to use a contrabass mouthpiece. I even recommended that on these pages. So, I was playing something like a Conn Helleberg on this tiny F tuba. Then, I noticed that really good players were talking about the shallow mouthpieces they were using on such instruments, but I always felt like those made the horn easy to overblow. Nevermind that they got four times the sound I did.

After a couple of years of playing the Holton, I bought a B&S F. It wouldn't tolerate the big mouthpiece at all, and I bought a Finn 4. I spent some time with it on the B&S, and then compared the result to the Yamaha with my normal large mouthpiece. Sure enough--fuzzy and unfocused. Then, I put the Finn 4 in the Yamaha. Voila! No more fuzz, and now a relatively clear, focused sound like I was getting on the B&S.

Time to record yourself on all your instruments and look for patterns.

Rick "who tries to stay within himself now, except when annoying people in the Elephant Room" Denney