Holes in leadpipe

[Lee Stofer]

Yes, someone out there is listening - in Germany, all new pro Mirafones that I've seen have nickel-silver leadpipes and tubing to the main tuning slide, Rudolf Meinl tubas have had rose brass leadpipes, rotor knuckles and main tuning slide crooks for over 5 years now, and some other manufacturers are getting the idea.

The player's chemistry makes a big difference, but so does how the instrument is cleaned. I have found that I can take even Jupiter student tubas that have not been cleaned for the first three years of their difficult lives and completely arrest the red-rot. My chemical-cleaning process consists of 1) de-greasing all parts, rinse, then 2) dipping all parts in de-limer/de-scaler, rinse, then 3) dip all parts in chromic acid (bright dip), rinse, then clean everything once more in a strong soap solution, rinse, allow to thoroughly dry overnight, then lubricate thoroughly with Hetman synthetic lubricants. This labor-intensive process is punctuated by sessions with scraping tools if the build-up is bad-enough. The end result is worth it, though, as it preserves valuable instruments.

Nickel-silver tubing, as well as rose brass, are more corrosion-resistant, but yellow brass should last longer than that. Check out the next Kanstul instrument that you see. They are so yellow-looking inside, that I believe that they must be using a bright dip at the factory, which would make them last a lot longer without corrosion problem. I have yet to see a Kanstul tuba or euphonium with calcium or green inside.

[Wyvern]

New Meinl-Weston/Melton and B&S tubas all have gold brass leadpipes as standard to stop this corrosion.

Mind you, I have played on some very old band owned Besson & B&H tubas with yellow brass leadpipes that have certainly not been regularly cleaned, yet appear to still have their original leadpipes un-holled.

[Chuck(G)]

Old Miraphones certainly have their share of leadpipe red-rot, although a fair amount of it appears not to be to the brass itself, but to the seam in the leadpipe.

[tubatooter1940]

Fascinating thread.
A set of steel guitar strings only last me five or six nights-three nights at the beach with the salt air. Then it's dead city.
I paid $140 for a chem clean for my old King and was afraid to ask how much goober they found. I don't want to know.
If there is a free chow line at a gig, should we not partake? Maybe a tooth brush and a water bottle in the car and would suffice.
Please pardon my ignorance but is beer acidic or alkaline?

[tbn.al]

I can attest to Lee's cleaning methods. My Ernst David is still the brightest yellow inside and out and it has been four or five years. The lead pipe has been crunched a few times in it's 100 year life but I don't have any pin holes. I'm holding my breath on my mirafone though.

[Art Hovey]

I bought a brand new Bohm & Meinl BBb tuba some years ago, and holes appeared in the leadpipe after about 6 years of playing. Fortunately, it came with another leadpipe that was allegedly a different size. (I could not tell the difference.)
My father bought a used Martin tuba back around 1932 and played it for more than 60 years. Perspiration from both of his hands ate throught the brass in only about 30 years. He had the holes patched, and one even had to be patched again. But the leadpipe never corroded through. When I disassembled the tuba I found that the solder joint where the leadpipe meets the valve section was corroded away, but not the pipe itself. I have been told that the pre-war brass was a better alloy, which may be true. But I also think the Bohm & Meinl leadpipes were made with much thinner metal.
I really doubt that changing from a brass leadpipe to a solid silver one with the same dimensions would have a noticeable effect on the sound in an honest blindfold test, but I am sure that a difference would be perceived by the player if the blindfold were removed.
Solid silver would be rather extravagant. My vote would be for solid copper leadpipes. It does not corrode, it shines up beautifully, it can be shaped as easily as brass, and it can be plated with silver, gold, or nickel.

[Chuck(G)]

My vote would be for solid copper leadpipes. It does not corrode, it shines up beautifully, it can be shaped as easily as brass, and it can be plated with silver, gold, or nickel.

Thanks, Art--I was just about to suggest that. I think copper's a great choice for a leadpipe.

If someone wanted to go high-tech, you could also draw a stainless steel leadpipe and press-fit some brass or copper ends for soldering on it. If you made of a 201 or 301 alloy, it wouldn't even work-harden as quickly as brass. You can also soft solder stainless with the right flux (phosphoric acid works okay).

[Lee Stofer]

I thought it an interesting commentary when Rudolf Meinl, Jr. told me that their suppliers swear that the brass formulas have not changed. However, he indicated that they could tell that they have. And, the mettalurgy does matter. That is why all Rudolf Meinl tubas now have rose brass leadpipes, valve knuckles and tubing through the main tuning slide, so that they can guarantee a certain standard of longevity for the instrument as a whole.

I don't know where the Thein brothers in Bremen, Germany get their metals, but I do know this. People can knock them for being outrageously expensive, but my Thein bass trombone is now 21 years old, I've cleaned it twice, and the horn only has a small amount of wear where I place my hands. The rotors are incredible, as they never seem to corrode - AT ALL. This is truly a horn that can be passed down to my grandchildren one day, and it won't be a rotten mess, either

If I had a G50/CB50, I think I'd just get a rose brass or nickel-silver leadpipe tube, lead-fill it, and make a pipe for the horn. They are a nice smaller York CC copy that otherwise is pretty bulletproof. I wish Getzen had not stopped production of this model.

Graham Wells, an up-and-coming tuba player in Atlanta, GA, has a Getzen G50 that I've cleaned and repaired. Through use, virtually all of the silver plating has come off the 1st valve slide crook, but his has a solid leadpipe that shows no signs of rotting out. Regular maintenance is a big factor. I've seen Graham's horn at least annually for the last 4 years or so.

Solid nickel-silver tubing is the really bulletproof option, like the one I put on Dr. Kenyon Wilson's Mirafone 186. The tonal character of his instrument did not suffer at all from the brass-to-nickel-silver change, and in fact may sound better now - a great horn!

[UDELBR]

I don't know where the Thein brothers in Bremen, Germany get their metals, but I do know this. People can knock them for being outrageously expensive, but my Thein bass trombone is now 21 years old, I've cleaned it twice, and the horn only has a small amount of wear where I place my hands. The rotors are incredible, as they never seem to corrode - AT ALL.

As of several years ago, Thein didn't make any valves or bells; all bought from suppliers. They just buy the parts, build the rest, solder it together, and tack on an astonishing price tag.

[Kendra]

So... I wanted to thank you all for your replies. Many of you had very helpful suggestions. I did receive an e-mail back from Peter Hirsbrunner who suggested that he send me a RED BRASS leadpipe. He said that he didn't have much experience working with sterling silver (and didn't have any in stock), so he didn't suggest that.

So... what do you all think about this? Will the red brass change my sound completely? I know it will change it a bit (it's already changed with the holes being filled in).

I'm especially interested in hearing from people who own the same kind of horn that I have (Hirsbrunner Exclusive).

Thanks, ahead of time!

Kendra

[tubatooter1940]

Thanks, Ben. This is something I really care about that might be controlled. But if we don't have to ("slightly acidic") then we can continue to pound beer with impunity.

[Chuck(G)]

So... what do you all think about this? Will the red brass change my sound completely? I know it will change it a bit (it's already changed with the holes being filled in).

I strongly suspect that you won't be able to detect a difference. Look at it this way; what porportion of the length of your instrument is the leadpipe?

If you are concerned that the red-brass pipe might not hold up for you, you could also ask Mr. Hrisbrunner if he'd fabricate a nickel-silver leadpipe.