Student, intermediate, & pro-level horns

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:06 pm

I've been struggling for some time to come up with a good explanation for the terms 'student', 'intermediate (or step-up)', and 'pro-level' when it is applied to musical instruments.

On a similar note... let's take a Conn 6H trombone for example. This trombone is regarded as a pro-level instrument. Was it originally produced to be a pro-level instrument?... or was it a situation where Conn came out with a new model and it turned out to be a better player than some of the other lines?

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:28 pm

The problem is, that I suspect, just like the "/4" concept, it means whatever the marketing department thinks will be most effective in separating you from your hard-earned cash.

Pro's will play whatever sounds the best. Be it 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, or 7/8. Students are likely to have the people buying them horns buy the cheapest available, durable or not.

In the perfect engineering world, the best design will be applied to the best materials, most carefully made, and most labor intensive instruments.

In the perfect marketing world, you get the most money for the least expensive to produce.

So in the long run, the pro instruments are the ones the pro's use the most, not what they can afford, either.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:53 pm

bloke wrote:At least prior to UMI, there was a cheapened down version of the 6H trombone called the "Director" 18H...' essentially the same, except for bracing and hardware.

Yea.... I know all that. I also know that the King 606 is a good horn. But.... what I want to know is were the 6H trombones manufactured initially for the professional market?.... or did Conn simply give a bunch of 'em to Dorsey to honk around on? When Dorsey proclaimed they were good horns and accepted them for his band... I wonder how many bucks changed hands... both real and in-kind. And..... are they really that much better than the 'Director' models?... or is that just marketing rubbish.

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:10 pm

An interesting aside would be to categorize features of horns as to the underlying function. For instance, consider one piece bells vs two piece. Is this a difference in attractivness, sound quality, longevity, fuctionality or a purely coincidental economic decision that really makes no difference in whether an instrument is student or pro.

Every production design decision has to have had it's merits thoroughly vetted prior to implementation. The engineering and marketing staff "why do it this way" discussions would surely factor into this. Does it make the horn play better? last longer?increase reliability? look nicer? need less maintainance? cost less to manufacture? This goes past design alone. We've all experienced a very well designed pro line horn that plays like a POS because it wasn't put together carefully.

I wonder if you could take all the features of a horn, list the differences between student and pro for each feature and come up with a grid that would be useable? This might be a great colabrorative effort for this forum.

tubaguy9 · Post by **tubaguy9** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:40 pm

tbn.al wrote:An interesting aside would be to categorize features of horns as to the underlying function. For instance, consider one piece bells vs two piece. Is this a difference in attractivness, sound quality, longevity, fuctionality or a purely coincidental economic decision that really makes no difference in whether an instrument is student or pro.

Every production design decision has to have had it's merits thoroughly vetted prior to implementation. The engineering and marketing staff "why do it this way" discussions would surely factor into this. Does it make the horn play better? last longer?increase reliability? look nicer? need less maintainance? cost less to manufacture? This goes past design alone. We've all experienced a very well designed pro line horn that plays like a POS because it wasn't put together carefully.

I wonder if you could take all the features of a horn, list the differences between student and pro for each feature and come up with a grid that would be useable? This might be a great colabrorative effort for this forum.

I'd buy the crappy looking tuba with the awesome sound output...unluckly, there isn't much in the way of that

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:43 pm

knuxie wrote:Doesn't Yamaha pretty much break it down the best?

YEP 201 Beginner
YEP 321 Intermediate
YEP 642 Advanced
YEP 842 Professional

Can't be much more complicated, can it?

Well, yes, it can, Ken. I believe the official terms are "standard" (YEP-201), "intermediate" (YEP-321), "Professional" (YEP-621, YEP-642), and then "Custom" (YEP-842).

I've yet to see the custom version of the "professional" YBB-641 BBb tuba in the USA (YBB-841).

jacobg · Post by **jacobg** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:18 am

There is a fairly exhaustive history of Conn model trombones on the trombone forum called "genesis of the 'modern' Conn models":

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,15769.0.html

Most of it is by Steve Dillon.

Also, it's my understanding that regardless of what he endorsed, Dorsey played Kings (what was later called a 2b).
The 6h was originally the "medium bore" model, while the 4h was the small bore, the 2h the Pryor model, and the 8h the large bore. 78h was a later addition, which was in between 6h and 8h. Early 88h's, with a valve, were just called "8h". All of these were professional horns.
I always assumed that, apart from the hardware differences, the instruments that got labelled "Pan American" and were therefore student horns (before the Director years) were built by rookies in the shop while the old hands built the pro horns. So while a horn might be very close in construction and dimensions to a student model, the craftsmanship was better on the pro models.

pulseczar · Post by **pulseczar** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:39 am

Here's my criteria.

Beginning instruments are (usually) built like tanks, keeping in mind that they would be used and abused by a careless kid. The sound characteristics are bland and generic, intended to help the beginning student to create the sound, not shape it.

Pro instruments are less tank-like, but what they don't have in durability they make up in quality of craftsmanship. The sound characteristics will be much more vibrant and variant because each musician will now have a concept of what they want to sound like (though some horns like the R13s, Heckels, Strads, etc have a big corner of the market)

Intermediate horns are Beginning instruments with some 'pro' advantages. IMO it's an unnecessary step and a waste of money to invest in an Intermediate horn.

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:22 am

pulseczar wrote:Intermediate horns are Beginning instruments with some 'pro' advantages. IMO it's an unnecessary step and a waste of money to invest in an Intermediate horn.

Unless that's as far as you are going to take the process.

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:24 pm

FWIW, I know of several "Pros" who play the Yamaha 321 "Intermediate" Euph, at least as a double.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:32 pm

"Student" horns have 3 valves, unless they're a trumpet.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:34 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:"Student" horns have 3 valves, unless they're a trumpet.

Okay, how many valves does a student trumpet have?

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:09 pm

Bob1062 wrote:Funny it seems that tuba players are fine with non-comp euphs, but euph players want the comp horns. That in of itself is not funny (duh!), but it seems that a tuba player would play in the low range more than a euph player ever would.

Yeah, but a lot of tuba players add a fifth valve to the 321.

Daniel C. Oberloh · Post by **Daniel C. Oberloh** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:16 pm

bloke wrote:
"Olds 'Ambassador' instruments are long-gone."

Not as long as I am at the bench and have a pulse!

Daniel C. Oberloh

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:28 pm

[/quote]

Not as long as I am at the bench and have a pulse!

Daniel C. Oberloh[/quote]

Preach on brother Dan! Two thirds of my trombones are Olds and if I could find a good George Roberts they all would be. Are the front action tubas as good as the rest of the line? I've never played one, but they do look good?

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:29 pm

Here's what Conn-Selmer has to say about their tuba products:

Bach 1107 3/4 Tuba - Intermediate
Bach 1107M 3/4 Tuba - Intermediate
Bach 1108 Tuba - Intermediate
Bach 1109 Tuba - Intermediate
King 1135 Tuba - Professional
King 1140 Tuba - Professional
King 1140SP Tuba - Professional
Conn 12J Tuba - Professional
Conn 12JSP Tuba - Professional
King 2340 Tuba - Professional
King 2341 Tuba - Professional
Conn 5J Tuba - Professional
Holton BB450 Tuba - Student
Holton BB450S Tuba - Student
Holton BB460 Tuba - Student
Holton BB460S Tuba - Student
Holton BB663 Tuba - Intermediate
Holton TU330CC Tuba - Professional
Holton TU331BB Tuba - Professional

Here's a list of the trombone products:

100H Conn Tenor Trombone Professional
110H Conn Bass Trombone Professional
112H Conn Bass Trombone Professional
12 Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
16 Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
2102 King Tenor Trombone Professional
2102L King Tenor Trombone Professional
2102PL King Tenor Trombone Professional
2103 King Tenor Trombone Professional
2103F King Tenor Trombone Professional
2103PL King Tenor Trombone Professional
2104 King Tenor Trombone Professional
2104F King Tenor Trombone Professional
2166 King Valve Trombone Professional
23H Conn Tenor Trombone Student
23HSP Conn Tenor Trombone Student
27H Conn Tenor Trombone Student
306 King Tenor Trombone Student
34H Conn Alto Trombone Professional
36 Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
36B Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
36BO Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
36C Bach Convertible Trombone Professional
36CO Bach Convertible Trombone Professional
36H Conn Alto Trombone Professional
39 Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
42 Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
42A Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
42B Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
42BO Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
42C Bach Convertible Trombone Professional
42CO Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
50A Bach Bass Trombone Professional
50A3 Bach Bass Trombone Professional
50B Bach Bass Trombone Professional
50B2 Bach Bass Trombone Professional
50B2O Bach Bass Trombone Professional
50B3 Bach Bass Trombone Professional
50B3O Bach Bass Trombone Professional
50BO Bach Bass Trombone Professional
52H Conn Tenor Trombone Professional
606 King Tenor Trombone Student
606SP King Tenor Trombone Student
607F King Tenor Trombone Intermediate
608F King Tenor Trombone Intermediate
62H Conn Bass Trombone Professional
62HCL Conn Bass Trombone Professional
62HI Conn Bass Trombone Professional
843 Bach Valve Trombone Intermediate
88H Conn Tenor Trombone Professional
88HCL Conn Tenor Trombone Professional
88HO Conn Tenor Trombone Professional
8H Conn Tenor Trombone Professional
LT12 Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
LT16 Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
LT36 Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
LT42 Bach Tenor Trombone Professional
TB200 Bach Trombone Intermediate
TB200B Bach Tenor Trombone Intermediate
TB200S Bach Trombone Intermediate
TB300 Bach Tenor Trombone Student
TB300S Bach Tenor Trombone Student
TB600 Bach Tenor Trombone Student
TB700 Prelude Tenor Trombone Student
TR100 Holton Tenor Trombone Professional
TR150 Holton Tenor Trombone Professional
TR158 Holton Tenor Trombone Professional
TR160 Holton Tenor Trombone Professional
TR181 Holton Bass Trombone Professional
TR183 Holton Bass Trombone Professional
TR395 Holton Superbone Professional
TR4501 Holton Tenor Trombone Professional
TR4510 Holton Tenor Trombone Professional
TR602 Holton Tenor Trombone Student
TR602F Holton Tenor Trombone Intermediate
TR602S Holton Tenor Trombone Student
TR680 Holton Tenor Trombone Intermediate
TR690 Holton Valve Trombone Professional
V16 Bach Valve Trombone Professional

Damn.... I didn't know there are THAT many professional horns around!

Gorilla Tuba · Post by **Gorilla Tuba** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:42 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:
knuxie wrote:Doesn't Yamaha pretty much break it down the best?

YEP 201 Beginner
YEP 321 Intermediate
YEP 642 Advanced
YEP 842 Professional

Can't be much more complicated, can it?
I've yet to see the custom version of the "professional" YBB-641 BBb tuba in the USA (YBB-841).

I played the 841 about 10 years ago at the Grand Rapids warehouse. It was a terrific horn. It played much like a Mirafone 187... but it was a little bigger, I think. My memory may be off, but I felt it sounded like a BBb version of my PT6.

lgb&dtuba · Post by **lgb&dtuba** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:18 am

bloke wrote:
bloke "Olds 'Ambassador' instruments are long-gone."

Still got mine. Had the slide reworked a couple of years ago and it's still as good as new.

It's semi-retired since I got a King 2B, though.

Jim

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:43 pm

tbn.al wrote:
Dan Oberloh wrote:
Not as long as I am at the bench and have a pulse!

Daniel C. Oberloh
Preach on brother Dan! Two thirds of my trombones are Olds and if I could find a good George Roberts they all would be. Are the front action tubas as good as the rest of the line? I've never played one, but they do look good?

You guys make me feel good about my trombones. I bought an Ambassador for $60 at a junk story in western Maryland, and a 48H out of a trailer in the yard of a "antique" store about five miles from my home. I paid $100 for it.

They won't die of anything but embarassment as long as I can help it.

Rick "who thinks only one things separates student-line instruments from pro-line instruments: price" Denney

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:52 pm

I'm going in at the end of the week to pick up a horn I was having cleaned by Herr Oberloh. I will be bringing in the 'world's grottiest Bb Ambassador' for him to have a look at. It was and e-bay find for $15 in a good case. It's all brown and funky and stuff. We'll have to see what he says....I might make it into an over-the-shoulder Civil War horn for my school history classes.

I bought another Ambassador which is in much better shape which I'm planning to have an Olds Super leadpipe and tuning slide installed to make it into a great 'second' trumpet. The way it's been told to me is that the valves of the Ambassador are just as good as the more expensive horns but the leadpipe, slide and bell were changed for the higher instruments. Supposedly, the leadpipe makes the biggest difference so I'll have a really nice horn for a relatively low cost. And, if I run into a kid who needs a better than avarage horn but has no money, I can give it to him/her to use and not have a bunch in it myself.