new 4 valve sousaphones for HS band

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TubaSteve
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Post by TubaSteve »

Lee Stofer wrote:It bothers me that so many subjective and sometimes downright ignorant things are said concerning sousaphones.

Sousaphones are tubas, and as such, a fine musical instrument when used and cared-for like a fine musical instrument. The Sousa Band sousaphones had 4 valves, but they only marched once or twice ever. Those instruments were designed to be played in a concert band. The valveset is by far the heaviest part of an instrument, so adding a 4th valve to an instrument to carry on your shoulder is more of a liability than an asset. The Brazilian-made instruments that sport a 4th valve, yet weigh less than many 3-valve sousaphones, have shed weight elsewhere, in the form of paper-thin tubing, flimsy braces, omitting the steel bell rim wire, paring-down the size of guard moldings or eliminating them, or a combination of all of the above. Does this sound like a good design decision for an instrument that will spend hours in use in a stadium, in the stands, and on a parade field, not to mention bus rides and use/abuse by teenagers?

Buescher, Conn, Distin, Holton, King, Martin, Olds, Reynolds, Selmer and York all made fine sousaphones, a number of which survive to this day and play well. But, none of these (except a Taiwanese-made King and an occasional 20K from Cleveland, OH, that is not like its predecessors) are available from manufacturers any more. Why? Because of the prevailing economic atmosphere where we want more and more but are wanting to always pay less for it. That is why we see cheapened-down copies of great American sousaphones of the past being built in developing countries with cheap labor and being sold here, so we can have what we are asking for at ever-cheaper prices.

Inflation is real, and manufacturers can keep their prices low for only so long until it is no longer economically feasible to build a sousaphone in the US. If you were to translate the price of a first-quality American sousaphone built in 1950 to its' cost in 2007 U.S. Dollars, it would most likely fall in the $10,000 - $12,000US range now. If there were school systems and individuals across the US willing to spend $10,000 per sousaphone today, I'm convinced that you could pick from pro-quality models from at least 4 different manufacturers in the US and several others from other countries.

When I was in high school, our program could not afford a full set of both sousaphones and concert tubas, so we used 'naked lady' Conn sousaphones on Wenger stands indoors and no one complained. They were beautiful instruments that were well-cared-for, and no one complained about using them. We played rather well in-tune without 4 valves - this IS possible. If one got damaged at all, it was the responsibility of the student and his parents to get it repaired, and the band directors and band parents made sure that the responsible party was held accountable. Reporting to a rehearsal or performance with a non-functioning instrument was reflected in our grades, and vandalism to a school instrument was a good way to get an F for the year, suspension from school, and criminal charges.

When no one is held accountable, music programs fail.
Great post! For the first few years that I was in school bands, we played sousaphones in concert also. I was thrilled to have a horn to play. I still think that the sound from my two Reynolds sousaphones is wonderful. They respond great, have a rich mellow sound and can really bark (not blat),when called upon. Solid very well built instruments.

Steve
MW-25, 2-Reynolds 170 (BBb Recording Bass), Reynolds 180 (EEb Recording Bass) , 2-Reynolds 140 Sousaphones, Holton 350, others.....
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iiipopes
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Post by iiipopes »

What Lee said. Period.
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Chuck(G)
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Post by Chuck(G) »

I note that a couple of high school music programs are leaving large brass (mostly tubas and sousaphones) out of their annual repair and refurb budget. One band directory explained it to me as "Look, do you know how many clarinets I can get refurbed for the cost of fixing one bashed-to-hell tuba?".

Makes sense to me.
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Post by sloan »

bloke wrote:
TubaTinker wrote:
richland tuba 01 wrote:we have 2 tuba players(not me!) that every time anyone says "run-through", even if they're not about to do a run-through, they punch the back parts of eachother's bells as hard as they can, so they can have a dent for every run-through. Maybe these new tubas will convince them to stop. they're not bad players either.
If you see this type of activity and fail to report it to the proper authorities, then I would consider you just as guilty as the morons doing it. You CAN make a difference.
nnah...

...They're getting nice shiny new (for a few minutes) sousaphones... ...' remember?

bloke "That's why I live in a 'poor' county of under 30K people with only ONE badly run-down public high school...I don't like the idea of having large chunks of my money taken through coercion - and then spent on soon-to-be-destroyed expensive new equipment purchased for public schools."
You know...it's probably not the kids who are at fault (and who are destroying "public property"). There's zero chance that the BD doesn't know this is going on - but he probably cares more about having two more warm bodies carrying big bells on the field than he does about anything else. Big numbers on the field are what the Band Parents' Association cares about, and they give him a budget big enough to trash a sousaphone or two every other year.

It's absolutely trivial to stop this kind of behavior, if that's what you want to do. But, the BD is the one, and only one, who can do anything about it. If he doesn't, I would assume that he approves.
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Post by Lee Stofer »

Bloke,
Thanks for the research. I had posted my concerns about skimpy construction of the Weril sousaphones, based upon someone posting that they weigh less than what most 3-valve sousaphones do. At 30 lb, that is certainly not a lightweight, and is most likely a quite good instrument after all. I've certainly had no trouble with any of their concert tubas, trombones or woodwinds that I've sold.

You know, I've been considering making a super-fiberglass sousaphone for my own use, too. I have a Holton fiberglass body in near-perfect condition that I'm thinking about re-fitting with a Boehm & Meinl 3-v. valveset. Someone had apparently over-expanded one of the Holton valve casings, so that valveset is in the valve parts bin. I think that the B & M valveset in a lightweight horn should be "the bomb". If it works out, I'll post pics.

I think that we are agreed, that people are for the most part getting what they ask for, as they vote with their Dollars, and that what is happening in our schools is reflective of our society as a whole.
Lee A. Stofer, Jr.
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iiipopes
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Post by iiipopes »

BTW -- the first thing I did when I found the old Conn/Cavalier (pre-14k, but made the same) souzy I occasionally play in the back of a closet, besides making sure it actually worked, was to get the upper 1st valve loop made into a usable slide. With the exception of 2nd space C being just a hair flat, everything has good intonation, and it has exceptional false pedals starting with open EEb and going down to 12 CC, so that a 4th valve would actually get in the way and possibly muck up the nodes from the added weight, another valve port to have to negotiate, and the addition of necessary bracing that could damp a necessary compression node and throw the whole thing out of whack if not done correctly.
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jacojdm
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Post by jacojdm »

bloke wrote:SORRY !!!

The ENTIRE time I was reading "MTS" (made in Elkhart, Indiana - lower priced/less apt to crack), I was THINKING "SKB" (higher priced - made elsewhere)

Here is the (good/economical/crack-resistant) MTS:

Image

Richland, you indeed have the GOOD MTS cases. I've been doing a brain-fart on this all day!!!

bloke "again, SORRY !!! "
On the plus side, however, when your SKB does crack (and it will), it's replaced for the cost of shipping it back to California.
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