VMI 2103 verses Jupiter 582L

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:54 pm

Here's a detail I can't find anywhere: on the Jupiter 582, the 4th valve expands to .788 from the main bore of .732.

Does the bore on the the VMI 2103 expand at the 4th valve from its main bore of .748?

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:23 pm

iiipopes wrote:Here's a detail I can't find anywhere: on the Jupiter 582, the 4th valve expands to .788 from the main bore of .732.

Does the bore on the the VMI 2103 expand at the 4th valve from its main bore of .748?

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting, not the recipe.

Rick "who doesn't think an expanded fourth-valve bore is always an advantage" Denney

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:09 pm

You're right, it's not. I'm used to dealing with design specs, not performance specs. Let me phrase it another way, aimed at those who are actually playing VMI 2103's now, or have significant experience to remember its characteristics:

I'm not so concerned about the actual size of the bore, and I'm not so concerned about the actual response of the low F, E nat or Eb as I am about getting a smooth transition from BBb to CC, for example, as well as other intervals in the low range whether by step or by interval.

My Besson valve block, not only a comp but becoming worn, on low F, for example, speaks very well, but the transition from BBb to CC coming up or going down a scale or phrase almost feels and sounds like two different tubas. As a contrast, the Conn 2J 3/4 CC I recently got to play for awhile while I was having it tweaked back up to top condition for my undergrad music department had a very smooth transition from its open CC to 4th valve D.

I know that there has to be some inertia and transition from adding well over 70 inches of cylindrical tubing going from open to 4th valve, but I'm looking for as smooth a transition as possible.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:48 am

More research has turned up this picture of the two of them side by side:

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:15 pm

iiipopes wrote:My Besson valve block, not only a comp but becoming worn, on low F, for example, speaks very well, but the transition from BBb to CC coming up or going down a scale or phrase almost feels and sounds like two different tubas.

Something I didn't mention in the PM was that it isn't just the length of the tubing, but also the number of turns, that creates that stuff feel. It may not be a result of valve wear at all, though that could be contributing to the problem.

The 1-3 combination on a 3-valve compensator routes the air through the first valve branch, the third valve branch, the third valve tubing back to the first valve to go through the compensation ports, and then the compensation loops for the first valve. That's at least four reversals of direction and six or seven right-angle turns in valve openings, not to mention the right angles in the ports of a top-action tuba.

In contrast, the fourth valve of the 2103, like most rotary tubas, has two right angles in the valve, two gentler right angles near the valve, a big loop and a tuning-slide crook, which is wider than most top-action arrangements. There's just a lot less to fight the progress of the air, irrespective of valve bore.

Rick "who thinks both the Jupiter and the VMI will have a much more open fourth valve/1-3 combination" Denney

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:42 am

Hey bloke -- thanks for sharing your experience. Now you know why I'm so reticent about my whole tuba situation.

I told my band director last night how frustrated I was that he was choosing music that was at the limit or even getting beyond the limits of my tuba, and how I was going to have to spend bucks on a new one. He ignored me. This compounds the fact that he thinks I'm out of tune, but I know I'm in tune relatively speaking (I have the tuner to prove it) and everyone else won't pull or do anything else to compensate the usual culprits: a little bit for 1-2, alternate fingerings where needed, etc. So I'm in tune with the rest of the band, but out of tune in my section. Another way I know I'm in tune is that I've played with various guys who have really good CC tubas, including one particular 56J with the 5th valve taken out so it's much more open and twice the tuba the stock configuration is, and one Kalison come to mind, and when we sit together we absolutely lock in tune, in spite of the pitch differences of the horns.

That kind of pissed me off even more, but I'll get over it because I like to play. Unlike the majority of the players, who obviously don't even crack open the folder between rehersals because of the kind of sectional note rehearsals he has to do with some sections during rehearsals, when we're supposed to be working on putting stuff together with what he wants out of interpretation, etc., I spend literally hours during the week trying to get some of this more difficult stuff right. He's just going to have to deal with me, even if I don't get a new tuba.

End of rant. Now, meanwhile, back at the ranch, or this thread, I get the best of all possible worlds next week. The most laid back guy in the section has a Star, which is a stencil of the older VMI, or Weltklang, etc. He has had it refurbished, and is in top shape, with the slightly tighter body, tall 16 or so inch bell and horizontal tuning slide. I tooted on it for just a couple of minutes at the end of rehearsal last night, and I did come to one immediate conclusion: it does NOT like my Wick 1 mouthpiece; intonation just completely unravelled on me, and the 5th partial was really flat. But of course, this was at the end of rehearsal on an unfamiliar horn, instead of at the beginning. As bloke indicated, I'm really spoiled on the intonation of my Besson. So, next week I'll drag out the rest of my mouthpieces and take with me to see if it likes one of them, like my Bach 18.

In addition, another band director friend has a fairly new Jupiter 582 at his high school. He is going to arrange for me to borrow it for a rehearsal so I can actually get some good blow time through it more than just a toot.

So I'll have both right there together I can get good comparison details on. What more can you ask for, short of buying one of each and returning the one you don't like? -- I know guys who do that routinely, whatever the product is. I just can't do that, not from a money situation, although that is an issue, but unless it's somewhere like Mouthpiece Express who expects you to do that and advertises they'd like you to do that so you get the exact mouthpiece you want, well, it's just not right. End of second rant.

This has been quite an adventure. It's one thing to shop for a "decent" tuba when you are purchasing your first one, and just about anything that you can stand to stay in the same room with on your budget will work. Once you have a good tuba, it's really difficult to find one that actually has measurably superior performance for the money, especially after you've gotten used to its personality quirks.

Thanks for hanging in there with me, guys. This thread has gone on a lot longer than I ever anticipated. I hope the discussion for the price point helps out others, as well.

Stay tuned for the next episode, when Uncle....

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:42 am

Band directors....

If you have never had a band/orchestra director hire a Seattle Symphony professional to play your part (on the night of the performance) after 8 weeks of rehearsals with no complaints said to me, I got one on you.

Little community orchestra with amateurs and a few semi-pros who consider it slumming and an orchestra director with delusions of grandeur. Amongnst other things dropped on my stand first rehersal is a part written for trumpet in "D". I am playing a B-flat. I play it fine, transposing as I go and practice it for 8 weeks. Another was a Bach thing that really needed a picc. I learned to play it on a standard B-flat and hit all the notes in tune. Many, many, many hours spent learning those tunes only to be replaced at the last minute. I guess I was supposed to buy a "D" horn and a picc.

And then there was the next orchestra director who only wanted to play showtunes. Arrgh.

Seems you are going to get real time practice on the two horns you are comparing. Good for you. You will be able to make a choice based on real facts...

(Progress is being made with my tuba learning. I'm starting to get all the open tones and the notes open-F and below. I got a Kelly 25 and start by playing the upper register as far as I can go and, once kinda loosened up, switch to the Helleberg and start moving through the low notes and, after about 15 min., I can get the open F and lower. I do that for about a half hour and stop.)

Jeff

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:33 am

That's true. But the Conn 56J is owned by a 20+ year Navy Band veteran who definitely knows what being in tune is all about, and this particular Kalison was doing well in spite of its undergrad owner.

What I probably should have clarified was that, of course, with the different pitched instruments having the different characteristic partials and valve combinations hitting on different notes, of course, we still matched pitches perfectly, as should be the case without even having to discuss it, instead of everybody else with their horns with similar characteristics all playing the same relative notes sharp or flat.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:11 pm

bloke wrote:Butting in (as I do), I FINALLY had the opportunity to play an old Besson BBb (pro'lly mid late '60's - early '70's) 3+1 comp. with TRULY "tight" valves.

It might (??) have been just a bit "stuffy" in the low range BUT REALLY NOT THAT BAD, and the intonation was (at least on that particular one) spectacular.

Joe, the Besson in question here is not a 3+1 compensator, but a 3-valve compensator. The third valve is the control valve for the compensation, not the fourth.

Theoretically, these can be more in tune than a 3+1, but that doesn't mean the third valve doesn't impose a whole series of twists and turns.

And it absolutely limits low range. Low E is as low as these play--I've never played one that had really decent false tones. Of course, it's rare that lower notes are asked for in a community band.

Rick "noting that the compensation tubing on a four-valve compensator is larger in diameter" Denney

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:19 pm

iiipopes wrote:What I probably should have clarified was that, of course, with the different pitched instruments having the different characteristic partials and valve combinations hitting on different notes, of course, we still matched pitches perfectly, as should be the case without even having to discuss it, instead of everybody else with their horns with similar characteristics all playing the same relative notes sharp or flat.

I've had this experience, too. When I've played duet with pro-quality players, I've felt like I was usually well in tune, or at least that the other player was able to tune to me.

In a section, it's more difficult, and in a community band, it's usually impossible. I find I can hear my own pitch well enough, but there isn't a consistent pitch to which I can compare it. I have trouble hearing three octaves and tuning to an oboe, and the committee of pitch producers in lower octaves can't agree.

The job of the tuba is, in my opinion, to lay a clean, clear, and correct pitch out for the band.

But that is not accomplished by spending all one's time with a tuner. I think it's much easier to accomplish by self-recording--I can hear my own pitch more clearly in a recording than when I'm playing. That helps me to calibrate my ears. The even temperament of the tuner teaches us to center a needle, not to hear correct pitches. Thus, I limit my work with a tuner somewhat.

Frankly, I could produce the best pitches in the world and it wouldn't make the band play any better in tune. As has been said, most folks don't know how to listen for tuning, and I'm afraid that probably includes me. I've considered buying the Tune-Up Systems kit for each section to use, but I have to try it myself first and I just haven't taken the time.

Rick "thinking that tuba players often play too loudly for their air power, allowing a spreading tone and loss of pitch clarity" Denney

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:28 pm

The Big Ben wrote:Little community orchestra with amateurs and a few semi-pros who consider it slumming and an orchestra director with delusions of grandeur.

Nearly all amateur orchestras exists solely for the pleasure of the string players. They want wind players who are far better than they will ever be, so that the wind players won't consume any time during rehearsal by playing less than perfectly. I've only played in one amateur orchestra that had any understanding of what a community group should be.

Where I live now, there's no way I could even audition for the local mostly amateur orchestra. Most of the winds and all the brass are hired pros. How'm I gonna compete with that? But they want a performance hall, betuxed and bejewelled patrons and big-name soloists. They can have it. I only rarely go--if I'm going to pay real ticket prices, I want to hear string players who can play in tune.

By the way, I suspect the VMI stands a better change of playing in tune without fiddling than the Jupiter, based on the examples I've played. The Jupiter isn't bad in that regard, but most of the VMI's I've played were better.

Rick "who doesn't care much about culture but who likes music" Denney

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:21 pm

Whether by voice, bass guitar, tuba, washtub, pipe organ or anything else that provides the low line, I have been providing the bass line for all of them in all arenas from school to garage band to country club gigging to European continental tours and professional national network TV since my voice broke.

So I agree a tuner isn't everything. As a matter of fact, it's worse than nothing when you are playing in ensemble with people who have no pitch center (not the same thing as so-called "perfect pitch"), and it is really only useful when a major component of whatever ensemble you're playing in is a keyboard, and lesser so with fretted instruments. But it is helpful to diagnose particular ideosyncracies in your instrument or your playing so you can adjust for them as necessary in ensemble. At worst, reliance on a tuner can lull a person into a sense of false security overlooking the inherent inconsistencies of intonation in any musical instrument, and the necessity of adjusting intonation depending on the music.

As far as the VMI being better with less fiddling than the Jupiter, pending my upcoming trial of the Jupiter, I will absolutely disagree with that one, because all tubas, even my comp, indeed all brass instruments by definition, will have the basic physical limitations of fitting linear valve slide lengths into the standard Western diatonic logarithmic or proportional pitch systems, whether called "pure," "pythagorean," "just," "meantone," "equally tempered," or whatever else name to call it. There are compromises everywhere, whether it be "stuffiness" for pitch, pulling slides for some notes so other more "commonly used" pitches will be "purer," intonation compromises of a few cents from adjusting slide length so all pitches have to be lipped slightly, dealing with one set of partials needing alternate fingerings so the others have better tone, intonation or both, etc. Since there is no such thing as a perfect instrument, then your priority on which attribute(s) are more important will be the determining factors in choosing what particular instrument or musical genre you play, as well as price and popular opinion.

sloan · Post by **sloan** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:22 pm

iiipopes wrote: ... all tubas, even my comp, indeed all brass instruments by definition, will have the basic physical limitations of fitting linear valve slide lengths into the standard Western diatonic logarithmic or proportional pitch systems ...opinion.

This misses the point, I think.

All tubas, and all brass instruments, would have this problem ONLY IF THEY WERE PERFECT. Hint: they are not.

Intonation in brass instruments (with varying proportions of cylindrical and conical tubing) are not well described in terms of "linear lengths". They live in a very complicate design space where the tubing lengths are an *important* but not the *only* consideration.

So...it's perfectly reasonable to state (as Rick "the Great" Denney) does that some tubas are easier to get around on than others. And, that the only real way to know is to take them for a test drive.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:30 pm

"Easier to get around on" is also just as subjective. If you're brought up blowing through stuffiness, then a really open blow tuba is going to be difficult to control. If you're brought up mainly pulling slides, then lipping or alternate fingerings may be difficult. The opposites also apply: a guy used to a really open blow is going to find compensators hard to center an attack on. People used to lipping will find horns with "tight slots" difficult. If you're brought up on alternate fingerings, you're not going to have practiced using your left hand...etc.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:33 am

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

Of course, B&S don't advertise the 2103. They advertise the PT-1 instead, and the "Hilger" model with the older style smaller bell, tighter body and horizontal tuning slide. They also want you to look at the 3301 piston or the new PT-605 instead.

On emailing Jupiter, their rep told me that within the last year that Jupiter has completely redesigned the 582, with a different bell, design changes to the valve block, make the pistons out of stainless instead of nickel or nickel plate, and some other minor details. Of course, this means that while similar, any play test or comparison of even "last year's" model horn won't be completely accurate.

So, to refresh the question, has anybody played the latest edition of the Jupiter 582?

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:18 pm

I literally missed by one day the nice looking 103 Baltimore Brass had for less than $2200. I called on Monday after seeing it surfing over the weekend, and it had gone on either Friday or Saturday.

The Conn/Cavalier souzy I play on occasion has a marvelous perfectly in tune "false" Eb open, D 2 and Db 1, and its 1-3 is open and fluid, in spite of 70 years of valve wear. Believe me, it has crossed my mind about getting a good three valve with an easy long pull 1st slide instead. Oberloh has a King that has both bells, so I would be set since I play both indoor and outdoor concerts. I'm still thinking about it. But as far as new horns, these were the two at the absolute top limit of my financable budget.

And as previously posted, I'll get the chance to play a rather new, meaning within a couple of years old, Jupiter along side a Star stencil brother of the 2103, so I'll let you all know my impressions.

I may end up liking one, liking the other, liking neither, getting a totally different horn altogether, or get a valve job on my Besson and tell the director someone else will have to cover the low end of the one or two really heavy numbers. I might ask one of the esteemed gentlemen who own shops and frequent TubeNet to just make me something, like out of a Conn valve set, may or may not add a 4th valve, and put it in a King bugle and bell. Something might come across otherwise, and I surf daily, as well as keep my ears and eyes open locally.

Hey Bob1062 -- as far as whether or not you come across as rude? No. Thank you for being straightforward. Life is too short and tubas cost to much to waste time beating around the bush. I'd rather hear the unvarnished truth up front than risk making a really bad multi-thousand dollar decision.

Now, if my budget were a couple thou larger, and I had the lung capacity I had in grad school, there is a 5-valve BBb Miraphone on BassClefBrass that looks fantastic.

If WWBW had their financing in order, they have a couple of used 2103's on line. So don't count them out, either.

Stay tuned....

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:46 pm

VMI or Jupiter? The answer is...neither.

I played a Jupiter at a band director's school, and it played like a lightweight version of my Besson -- a little thin for me. Meanwhile, WWBW under their new owners jacked the price more than $500 and took it out of the territory.

So, I surfed and found an early 1970's Miraphone 186 with detachable bell for, well, a song. But...

It has both its original detachable recording bell and a retrofitted upright bell. Obviously, the upright bell will be used most. But I'm really looking forward to outdoor gigs, like the county fair, Independance Day, parade floats, etc., for the forward bell.

Unfortunately, to retrofit the upright bell, the wiseacres at Tuba Exchange took the tenon off the recording bell instead of fitting a new one to preserve the recording bell. So I'll have to sort that out first before I can use it. But I did get a good deal on the tuba overall, also in spite of the fact that the upright bell is too short and I have to pull the tuning slide all the way, and they wouldn't help me figure out a longer one.

But, at least I'm back in business, and I'm getting a longer main tuning slide and a couple of other niggles sorted out thanks to Dan Schultz, who as you all know has done a lot of work on Miraphones and has proper retrofit bells and other hardware for both conventional and detachable bell Miraphones. Also, I found a valve-less carcass of a Besson in great shape to transplant my Besson valve block onto as an ongoing project for the next few months for less than $100 including shipping, so I'm feeling much better now!

Thanks to everyone for all your input. It helped me sort out my situation very well.