Use of Electric Base in Concert Band

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:28 pm

Hey bloke -- yes, indeed! Especially the Ampeg. If the speaker in the Ampeg ever goes, I know a great second generation speaker recone specialist who can fix it for you correctly. And you need to fix it rather than replace it because its compliance characteristics are matched to the cabinet. Replace it with something like the Black Widow in your son's TNT and it will mismatch the cabinet volume with the compliance of the speaker and get a very nasty woofy peak @ 150 to 175 Hz.

The Bassman is a backup head. My main head is a Carvin 300 watt from the early 90's that has been complimented as the cleanest head with guts anybody had ever tried, and currently I have it on top of an SWR Triad: 1X15, 1X10 & tweeter, like a stereo speaker on steroids. It's what my friend is using in concert band as when he moved he sold his equipment other than his horns and bass for the move. With its built in compressor, used sparingly as it should be, it does anything BUT boing, boing....

ai698 · Post by **ai698** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:48 pm

All Your Base Are Belong To Us

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:42 pm

ai698 wrote:All Your Base Are Belong To Us

Biggs · Post by **Biggs** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:47 pm

While hardly ideal, substituting electric bass for tubas may very well be a necessity for schools with limited enrollment, budget, or other support. As someone said earlier, we're not talking about the CSO. We're talking about a group of kids and one guy/girl faced with the Sisyphean endeavor of coaxing something tuneful out of the little cretins, I say using any means available. The cost of a tuba is a prohibitive factor for school programs (including my high school), and finding a student who already owns their own tuba would be unheard of. An electric bass is a cheaper item for the school committee to approve the purchase of, not to mention far more common in attics, basements, and garages.

What if the situation were reversed?

Would you begrudge a school orchestra director with few or no string basses asking one of the band's tuba players to join them for some Mozart or Beethoven?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:08 pm

Biggs wrote:What if the situation were reversed?

Would you begrudge a school orchestra director with few or no string basses asking one of the band's tuba players to join them for some Mozart or Beethoven?

I've witnessed that done wtih at least one professional group (with the tuba discreetly hidden behind the basses) where some reinforcement was needed for the ff sections. It worked well.

But I'd have problems with a tuba playing the bass part in Roman Carnival, for example. I don't think it would sound right, even if it could be done well.

Similarly, I really wouldn't want to hear Schubert's Trout quintet played with a euphonium substituting for 'cello.

But a weak bass section really doesn't matter awfully in much orchestral music--the basses are doubling the 'cellos an octave down much of the time. Not having even one bass isn't necessarily fatal to a performance.

It's been my experience that in a school band there are always too many sax players. Using a baritone sax to play the tuba parts is a viable option that doesn't sacrifice musical sensibilities too much--you could get away with the Host first suite with bari sax playing the tuba part. If done well, it might even be interesting.

ken k · Post by **ken k** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:22 pm

we are talking about a public school middle school band right?

Is it ideal? of course not, but we are not talking a conservatory here. If you are turning kids on to music that is what is important.

I just started a beginning electric bass class at my elementary school so that the jazz bands in the ms and hs would have some electric bass players. (We do not have a string program)

ken k

Tubaguy56 · Post by **Tubaguy56** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:42 pm

I think the point here is, e-bass should only be used when ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. If there is some outstanding reason why you need more bass and you can't possibly get a hold of a tuba, bassoon, bari sax, or a REGULAR string bass, then ya, go ahead, you don't have another option unless you want to go without bass.

In a marching band setting I don't think it is necessarliy a bad thing either considering most marching bands are playing pop tunes that were originally written for e bass.

but other than the aforementioned, e-bass in band is sick and wrong.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:45 pm

ken k wrote:Is it ideal? of course not, but we are not talking a conservatory here. If you are turning kids on to music that is what is important.

You're right, of course, Ken. It still bothers me when 14 kids show up playing alto or bari sax in a school band and no one is interested in trombone, horn or tuba.

Maybe things will get to the point where schools will simply issue kazoos and drums for the music program--if one exists.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:46 pm

Biggs wrote:Would you begrudge a school orchestra director with few or no string basses asking one of the band's tuba players to join them for some Mozart or Beethoven?

Better yet, in the early days of recording, John "Chief" Kuhn did actually play the string bass parts on either recording bell tuba or souzy on a lot of orchestral recordings so they actually could be heard on the recordings.

lgb&dtuba · Post by **lgb&dtuba** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:28 pm

ai698 wrote:All Your Base Are Belong To Us

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:23 pm

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

MAYBE one double-bass in certain tunes where the score calls for it..... but NEVER a section of amplified solid-body pieces of firewood! The thing I dislike most about using any sort of amplified instrument in band is there is usually very little effort at dynamics. Turn it up.... and leave it up, seems to be standard operating procedure. If guitars show up... I usually go home!

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:28 pm

Hey, Tubatinker -- I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with amplified instruments. Of course, I must be the exception: being good in math, I was taught that there are other numbers on the knobs, including zero, and not just 10.

The sad part is exactly what you're talking about, and that most do not explore the incredibly wide range of dynamics and musical expression possible with just a little forethought.

When I do play one of my electric instruments, now I eschew carrying amplifiers as much as possible, and use a digital emulator or just straight into the board and let the sound man deal with it. Of course, he's definitely been taught that there is a zero there, in the form of a mute button, as well as a slider. I keep that in mind.

djwesp · Post by **djwesp** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:29 pm

TubaTinker wrote:NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

MAYBE one double-bass in certain tunes where the score calls for it..... but NEVER a section of amplified solid-body pieces of firewood! The thing I dislike most about using any sort of amplified instrument in band is there is usually very little effort at dynamics. Turn it up.... and leave it up, seems to be standard operating procedure. If guitars show up... I usually go home!

The exact same reason I stopped taking my money to drum corps shows.

Amplification done poorly, with brass instruments ... it sounds tacky, disgusting, and seldom works correctly in such settings.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:31 pm

Yes, but when it does work correctly, it is a nice addition. Not replacement, but addition.

djwesp · Post by **djwesp** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:39 pm

iiipopes wrote:Yes, but when it does work correctly, it is a nice addition. Not replacement, but addition.

In a drum corps setting, i've yet to see an addition.

Other ensembles, yes.

(bitter old alum)

LoyalTubist · Post by **LoyalTubist** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:40 am

Some groups use the electric bass as a substitute for tuba. It makes the tuba seem like a useless instrument. Fortunately, there are some groups out there (including one major circus--at least) which still recognizes the worth of a tuba. I am not against the use of an electric bass guitar unless it means that it is being used to substitute for the tuba. Let me further state that, if it's being used to enhance the bass section, the leader of that group does not recognize the worth of a tuba.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:24 am

Remember, I said addition, not substitute, enhancement, or any other word that could be misconstrued.

Remember also that the lower end of a concert band needs the woodwinds, Eb bari sax, Eb & BBb contra clarinets, and even a bassoon as well as the tubas to fully complement and support the band.

A bass guitar is just that -- one more voice that, when done correctly, complements the band and gives more tone color.

These same discussions were made about Fender's "plank" guitar when it first came out, and about digital synthesizers when they first came out, and even about trumpets by the cornet virtuosi of a century ago. Although the cornet guys may have had a point!

Just for perspective, I had the option of playing bass guitar myself in a recent concert on a particular piece -- a Beatles medly arranged for concert band that looked like it had been rearranged from a brass band arrangement -- complete with octave parts all the way through on the tuba part. After reviewing the entire arrangement with the conductor, we came to the conclusion that on that particular piece it wouldn't add anything, and may have even detracted, so I not only stayed with tuba, but I honked it out on my Besson BBb to give it that tone color which did perfectly support that particular piece.

pulseczar · Post by **pulseczar** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:21 am

iiipopes wrote: being good in math, I was taught that there are other numbers on the knobs, including zero, and not just 10.

I find that bass guitars don't blend very well with the band and the attack is too 'punchy' to be subtle and harmonious.

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:36 am

I think the big debate shouldn't be about changing the numbers on the dial. It should be about playing with musicality and control and probably with the use of a volume pedal (something many guitarists would never leave home without, but that many bassists have never even heard of.) I have played in more than a few church orchestras with rhythm sections where the bass sounds just fine on forte tutti sections, but as soon as the instrumentation drops down, and you have a handful of woodwinds playing mp, the good ol' bass player is still pluckin' away FF.

I have found that there are typically two kinds of bass players - very good and really bad. Unfortunately, there seems to be virtually no in-between.

GC · Post by GC » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:29 am

There is no excuse for bass players to play the same volume all the time. You can go from pp to ff using nothing but the fingers of your picking hand. It just takes practice and control.