Valve set and 5th for a Eb York Monster

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:50 pm

Bob1062 wrote:.... I found someone with a nice front valve horn, all I gotta do now is decide on a valve set. And, you know, get my money together

Even thought we've been emailing back and forth about this, I figured I should 'chime in' here. If we're thinking about grafting a four-piston front-action valveset onto a horn, it really doesn't matter if we start with a front-action horn or not. That Conn hybrid on my web page started off as a junk Pan-American top-loader. We wouldn't have to sacrifice a descent York front-action Eb in order to build another horn.

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:48 am

You should contact Dan Oberloh, he told me he has a source that makes a valve set that even looks like an original York valve set. He uses them on his York restoration/conversions of 3 valve monsters into 4 valve horns. I believe a monster York would need to have a .748 or .750 bore valve set. After all, the York Model 712/716 came a valve set that big and they are only a big 4/4 or 5/4 horn.

Tubanese · Post by **Tubanese** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:13 am

Bob1062 wrote:
You guys that have 4 valve Monsters, do you wish you had a 5th valve?

Nope....have no more space anyway.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:22 pm

Bandmaster wrote:You should contact Dan Oberloh, he told me he has a source that makes a valve set that even looks like an original York valve set. He uses them on his York restoration/conversions of 3 valve monsters into 4 valve horns. I believe a monster York would need to have a .748 or .750 bore valve set. After all, the York Model 712/716 came a valve set that big and they are only a big 4/4 or 5/4 horn.

...but we're talking about a "monster" Eb, not a BBb, here, right? Really no larger than a 4/4 BBb (same bell). The original was 0.655" on these horns.

Even the big Willson 3400 has a first valve bore of only 0.700" or so. It's plenty.

I'm laying out the parts for a York "monster" experiment with a YEB-321 valveset (0.689) as we speak. I'll keep the list posted if it turns out to be something worthwhile. Yes, it's top action and figuring out how to re-route the 4th valve tubing is going to be interesting, but who knows?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:24 pm

Bob1062 wrote:Thanks guys.

Is a .689 big enough for a good low end? Would something else be too big? I've been playing small horns and bass trombone for a long time, so I sorta like some resistance.

King BBb sousas and the 2341 BBb both have 0.687" valve sections, as does the Conn 56J CC. Why wouldn't that be enough for an eefer?

Bandmaster · Post by **Bandmaster** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:25 pm

Chuck(G) wrote: ...but we're talking about a "monster" Eb, not a BBb, here, right?

We are???

The key of the tuba was not mentioned in the original posting so you'll have to forgive me if I am confused.

Chuck(G) wrote:Even the big Willson 3400 has a first valve bore of only 0.700" or so.

For what it's worth... The new Miraphone Firebird Eb is listed with a .770 bore thru the first 3 valves and a .830 thru the 4th valve.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:48 pm

That should work just fine, if you carry it all the way into the main tuning slide. IIRC, the bore of the 5th valve on a Willson 3400 is somewhere around 0.800.

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:55 pm

Bob1062 wrote: By no means do I want to cheap out on this....

Uh, yeah right

DCottrell · Post by **DCottrell** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:13 am

Here's a tuba I put together very quickly for a friend subbing in a brass band. It consists of a York bell and branches and a brand new King valve cluster (.689") and various slides and crooks from a King tuba. It plays VERY Well in response and tone. There are several notes that are out of tune, and they are mostly in the 4th partial. I only had about 2 weeks to finish this, so it is a bit ugly.

Note the wrap on the 4th valve. I am happy with how that came out all on one side, leaving plenty of room for a possible 5th valve off the tuning slide.

The story is that on Monday, my friend (a euphonium player) returned the instrument as he located a Besson to borrow. There were too many out-of-tune notes for an inexperienced player to navigate. Regardless of the desperate need for a new leadpipe on this horn, and regardless of the inexperience of the player, I do not think the Giant Eb's make good Eb tubas for modern players used to modern bores and mouthpieces. Especially as they are not being used for their intended purpose, which is the higher of 2 parts. My opinion is that the too-rapid taper in the last branch before the bottom bow in order to take a .650" or so bore up to a 20" bell in such a short distance wreaks havoc with how the overtones line up. I have always liked the sound of these monster Eb's, but my Willson 3400 has a much darker sound using a larger bore and smaller taper/bell. And it has none of the "quirks"

Moral of the story, if you want to convert a Monster Eb to a tuba capable of handling the mouthpieces, players, and musical expectations of today, convert it to a CC tuba. Otherwise, I agree with Bloke. Your money is better spent on a MW, Besson or Willson, etc.

Sam Gnagey · Post by **Sam Gnagey** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:12 am

I couldn't agree more! The CCs that turn out using the big Eb bells and somtimes bottom bows are great playing, sounding and in tune. The best of the monster sized Ebs are the Kings. Pitch is far less of a problem with them than on the Yorks, Holtons, Conns and Martins. You might have some success with such a project on a King Eb bugle. Caveat: If the horn plays out of tune to start with as a 3 valve Eb, adding more valves won't solve the problems.

randy westmoreland · Post by **randy westmoreland** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:10 pm

[img][img]http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u174 ... on/2-1.jpg[/img][/img]

York Monster EEb with 4 Conn valves, by Bob Rusk. Plays great!

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:11 pm

bloke wrote:...Does my life no longer have meaning?

Boy, I'm not gunna TOUCH that one...

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:23 pm

Now this is way off-topic, but the mention of sticking things on refrigerators got me a mental itch to scratch, namely,

If your kitchen decor is the currently "in" military-industrial all stainless type, do refrigerator magets stick to the door of your fridge?

I wandered around my local hardware store this past weekend with a magnet checking things that were labeled "stainless". I was really surprised how many of them turned out to be magnetic.

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Valve set and 5th for a Eb York Monster

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