euphgal88 wrote:I got into Eastman, and it was my first choice school, but it would put me and my family into about $80,000 in debt. Is it worth it?
I'd say do it.
Is a diploma that says Eastman or Julliard worth 80,000 in your mind? It would be in mine. ESPECIALLY, considering the difference between that and a different school is probably only about 40,000-45,000 (maybe less). Is that worth it my mind? EVEN MORE SO.
(thinking that making money in the music world is hard enough, and a diploma from a good school will help!)
Well, going to college is really investing in yourself. So if you plan to study and practice ALL THE WAY THROUGH COLLEGE, then it might be a good idea. However, if you don't really plan on doing much of the above mentioned things (study/practice), then it might not be a good idea- you've wasted your initial investment, and put yourself in debt; and all you have to show for it is a piece of paper. If you have confidence and determination to see it through, go for it.
Perhaps you are not 100% sure this is the right career path, that's a really big chance and eventually you are going to have to pay off those student loans. Whenever you graduate, you might get want to buy a house, I'm guessing student loans along with goals like that require big $$$.
Now most everybody (in school) that I know now has some student loans. I know I do, eventually I'll have to pay them back. But I didn't get carried away and get a couple of the most expensive horns, lease a porsche and have a huge plasma TV. Think what's the difference between the amount you want and the amount you need to succeed.
Most of my college was paid for by the Army. After high school, I wanted to go to college, but I couldn't ask my parents for the $$$, even if they had it. So, I joined the Army and let Uncle Sam foot the bill. They got 6 years of service(the best years of my life I might add), I got a HUGE chunk of college paid for. At times, the only thing that kept me going through BCT (bacis combat training) was the fact that if I did what the Army wanted, they would make it worth my while. It's a two way street, it's give and take. How much are you willing to sacrifice to make your dream come true?
But, sit down with your family and people who's advice you trust and get their opinions. Going to college is just one of the bigger choices you'll make during your life. Consider and weigh all the outcomes and possibilities very carefully. Where do you see yourself in 4 years, in 6 years, in 10 years? Make goals(are they realistic?), then see what you have to do to make them.
Like so many things, it's a choice only you can make. Make sure it's the choice that's right for you.
What are you looking to do after college? Teach, play pro?
Excuse my bias (potsdam grad), but if you're looking to teach, Potsdam is really a great option. The numbers don't lie, look at where most of NYS music teachers went to school. Ithaca is also a good education school, but it is also more expensive.
Have you met with the teachers? I suggest you take a few days, if you haven't already, and drive to take a lesson with all of the teachers from those schools. Remember, this is the teacher you're going to be spending a lot of time with for the next 4 years.
If you want to know anything specific about Potsdam, PM me and I'd be happy to answer.
If either of the other two schools are offering scholarships, I would go there.
IMHO, once you get into the real world I am not sure where you degree comes from will matter much. On the other, the debt may follow you for a long time.
No.Unless you vow now to join the Army,which has recently been paying 60k of student loans(which would still leave you quite a bit of debt).This means ANY Army gig(which are ALL tough to get on euph.,regardless of post)that comes open when you graduate.What you're proposing could be a huge anchor weighing down all your future decisions.These loans will be with you forever,and are not bankruptable.I challenge you to find a cheaper solution with a great teacher somewhere in the world.Be creative, it could mean the difference between taking a job you hate just for money,or being able to hold out on a small budget while you wait for your dream gig.Keep in mind the average salary in music is probably in the 30-40k range.Not really worth taking on 80-100k in debt.Just my opinion.Debt is bad...
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As someone who's just gone through the scholarship roller-coaster, I have a few things to say. I don't know you're current economic situation, so I'll be general and say you're parents will probably pay for the lion's share of the college debt. If that is the case, will your parents be economically prepared to take on such a hit? For that matter, will you be able to pay the debt? I was recently put into a somewhat similar situation. Given the choice between a great school which payed for half of tuition, and a great school which was unable to give me any scholarship, I naturally chose the one which gave me the money. I'm in that curious "lower middle-class/screwed out of practically any need-based aid" bracket, and I did not want to put my parents and family through the hassle of paying for a lot of college debt. I say, if you're set on going to Eastman, go for it. But, if you would be just as happy at another school that gives you either more money and/or would incur less debt, then seriously consider that alternative. Just my 2 cents.
Aaron Hynds
By now you should know if you are whup *** good and talent oozes from your pores. If not, here is some suggested reading. Skip down to the heading What to Do if Your Band Member Wants to Pursue a Career in Music http://www.bandparenting.net/chap7.html
What do you want to do for the next 4 years. You list two very different kinds of opportunities. Only you can decide what you want to do.
My general advice is: if Eastman offers the education you are after (and you should carefully consider this), then it's far and away better at what IT does than your other choices. Note that I'm not disparaging your other choices. They are simply (in my mind) *different*.
If that's the case, bite the bullet and take on the debt.
And...take it on yourself - don't think of it as your *parent's* debt. They should contribute what they can afford to your education - but YOU should take on the debt. $80k is big, but it's not crushing. With luck, you'll have 40 productive years to pay it back.
That said - be sure that you have the commitment and the interest to make Eastman the right choice. In my opinion, this is a MUCH bigger decision than the $80k.
I was in a very similar situation to you a few years back- choosing between those very same three schools. I really like and indescribably respect both Dr. Unland at Ithaca and Dr. Guy at Potsdam, and I'm sure I could (and have) learned many, many great things from either of them, but I chose Eastman because it was my dream school. My financial situation was a bit better than yours sounds, but let me tell you why I chose Eastman over the other two schools.
The main reason I decided on Eastman was the strength of the ensembles. I get the biggest kick out of playing with a great group, and from my visits to all three schools and listening to several groups at each, Eastman really stood out. Especially being a euphonium player, you need a great wind ensemble, which Eastman can offer. I have learned as much from Dr. Scatterday, the wind ensemble conductor, as I have from anyone else. There is no substitute for learning through doing.
The euphonium professor here, Mark Kellogg, is an amazing man. He is one of the most hard-working teachers I have ever known. He is an amazing musician who always has something helpful, sometimes profound and sometimes practical, to say. I have learned a lot from him as my brass quintet coach.
I could go on for a while, because I am happy here, but you are the one making the decision. When I was making the same decision three years ago, I chose Eastman.
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Eastman School of Music Class of 2008
What do you plan to do with your education? Several posters have indicated, for good reason, that the military is an option. What they are saying is that if you want to perform professionally on euph the military is pretty much your only option. Do you see yourself being in the military for your professional performing career? If not, then how are you going to pay back that $80,000 and what are you going to do that make it worth spending $80,000?
Do you see yourself teaching? At what level? Again, unless you are plannning on becoming one of the movers and shakers in the educational world you need to consider whether that expensive education is going to be worth the bucks it's going to cost.
Think, return on investment.
If you aren't going to go all the way, either with a miltary career or a Ph.D and a teaching career, then it seems to me to be a crazy amount of money to spend. Especially if you don't have it (either the money or the career path).
I put 2 kids through college and was in that 'we couldn't get any financial aid' group. I took on the debt so my kids wouldn't start out their after college lives already in debt, but I have to tell you that I wouldn't have forked over $80,000 + expenses to some place like Eastman unless my kid (as a eupher) was especially driven in one of those 2 directions I mentioned. And maybe not even then.
bloke wrote:A less-expensive but possibly just as effective an alternative is to study the euphonium with a euphonium virtuoso, Ben Pierce, at the University of Arkansas. (That's only c. 5 hrs. from where I live, but I've never met Mr. Pierce...' only heard recordings of his live performances @ http://www.benpierce.com ).
Obviously, at the University of Arkansas, it would be pretty difficult to perform with the legendary Eastman Wind Ensemble...but we all make our own legends, don't we?
U of A has great brass ensembles. The brass department has historic Chicago roots. Ben came in to take the valved low brass load off Gerry Sloan, who is a fantastic trombone player and teacher with a Northwestern pedigree. The father of that department is prof emeritus Robert Bright, also from Chicago. I am prejudiced though. My master's is from there and Gerry and I were section mates a long, long time ago.
Seriously, I doubt if you can ever financially justify $80,000 for an undergrad degree in Euphonium. It's got to be looked at as something you have to do for yourself whether it ever comes back in dollars, 'cause it probably won't.
I am fortunate to have a great job that feeds my family well, but music feeds my soul.
Which school do you think is going to give you the best opportunity to grow and develop musically? Thats the name of the game. What teacher do you want to study with, and who do you think can help you reach your end goal? Ask yourself these questions and they may help you narrow it down. If you would like any more perspective, please feel free to drop me a PM.
Do you see yourself teaching? At what level? Again, unless you are plannning on becoming one of the movers and shakers in the educational world you need to consider whether that expensive education is going to be worth the bucks it's going to cost.
Think, return on investment.
If you aren't going to go all the way, either with a miltary career or a Ph.D and a teaching career, then it seems to me to be a crazy amount of money to spend. Especially if you don't have it (either the money or the career th).
My thinking is as follows:
Find out what monthly payment you will have to make for ten years of your life related to this investment.
Then research your career path and what can be expected from an employer (military or university) for typical starting pay.
Will you be able to provide for yourself and a family on this salary minus the payment for your education? Remember to factor in Mortgage, Insurance, Car payments etc.
You have received some excellent advice from former Eastman grads too. It is an excellent school, but tough decisions require complete research.
My father said to me that your undergraduate degree is what you make of it. I agree with his thinking, but Eastman is an attractive place.
Part of this issue depends on whether you plan on graduate school immediately after undergrad. You might want to consider going to a less expensive school (with a good euph. teacher) for your undergrad, practice your brains out, and then go to a more expensive school for a (shorter, less debt) graduate degree.
There's been lots of good advice posted and points to consider, albeit, mostly right-brained, which is surprising, coming from a bunch of musicians. Let me offer a minority, left-brained point of view. From my experience, any life decision that is based on cost justification alone is flawed and often ignores the intangible and non-quantifiable issues of self-actualization and quality of life. Just try to cost justify getting married or
having kids, as an example.
I'm not suggesting that you put yourself or your family, in financial harm, but if you truly want to become the best you can be on your horn and in music, and you believe in that in your soul you have the internal fortitude to pull it off, then you should take every advantage of the opportunity and choose Eastman. This of course assumes that you believe that Eastman is the best place for you and you understand that there may be more financially lucrative careers that you are
forgoing by pursuing music.
This is not a time in your life to make second choice decisions. Nobody can put a price tag on the world class musical education you'll receive or take away the pride that you will carry with you for the rest of your life of doing your best at one of the top conservatories in the world.
Your undergraduate years will be your halcyon years. If you have the opportunity, talent and internal drive to take advantage of all that is presented to you, go for it!
You don't ever want to be burdened with being hounded with thinking "I could have", or "I should have".
You can always adjust as you progress. Carpe diem!
I am almost finished with my undergraduate degree. Having been through 4 years of school already, I think I can help you some.
IF I WERE YOU, I would go somewhere where I could go for free. Yes, I know that sounds selfish, but seriously. Think about it, go to school somewhere where you can go for free (or almost, or closest to, whatever), and then, spend your money where it really matters--grad school. You are more likely to be focused during your grad school years anyway. When I was auditioning for colleges while I was in high school, I didn't really think much about money being an issue. Thankfully, I didn't go somewhere where it costs a lot to go. I could've made a huge mistake.
I am also a euphonium player, and getting a euph. performance degree is a tough cookie. What are you going to do with it? Military band? Teach? Those are your two main options. ...and if you want to teach, you're more than likely going to have to go to grad school. What I'm saying is, getting a performance degree takes a lot more planning ahead than you'd realize.
Ultimately, it's up to you. I also have parents that should have retired long ago, but still work because I am still in school. I personally hate knowing that my parents are still working for that reason. Really think about the financial burden that you will be putting on your family (unless you're really well off, which I am not, haha).
EuphDad wrote:
Nobody can put a price tag on the world class musical education you'll receive or take away the pride that you will carry with you for the rest of your life of doing your best at one of the top conservatories in the world.
Actually, they did. $80,000.
I respectfully must disagree with you on this. Working class stiffs can't afford the luxury of a feel-good education that only gives you pride (and not a living). That's a luxury for lids who's parents have the money to burn and $80,000 plus living expenses is pocket change. And will be handed a position in Daddy's firm after graduation. Or marry rich.
The fact that the money was brought up in the OP tells me that we aren't dealing with a moneyed scion here.
The regrets that I have from not spending money on something that brought me closer to my dreams far outweigh those from spending too much money on such somethings.
I have an excellent education from an excellent and fairly expensive (for that era) university. I am now in an entirely different field from that listed on my diploma, but the education in that field has enriched my life and informed my world-view, philosophy, spirituality, critical thinking, creativity and ethos in such a way that I don't think I'd be where I am today without it.
An education is something that you'll have for the rest of your life. So is a regret.
If you are truly passionate about playing your euph, and you think that Eastman is the place that's going to inform your playing better than anyplace else, then you must go there. If you never get that orchestra job (if that's what you want), you don't fancy a life in the military or in education, then you can find a job in some other field and still play your horn to your heart's desire (I'll say that again, "heart's desire") in plenty of non-professional contexts while your money job pays off the debt.
If that doesn't describe your feelings for playing--or if the financial burden would truly jeopardize you or your family's well-being--then go somewhere cheaper.
lets say you did major in euph performance, if things don't pan out, you can always get certified and then teach. I disagree with the double majoring if all you really want to do is perform, then again, I'm entirely prepared to be broke when I'm 35......
Now, if you really really want to major in euph performance, you have to go where you can get the best education, because if you're not, someone else is, and with as many euph jobs as there are out there, that is an advantage you cannot afford to lose.
