"amateur" / "professional"

[windshieldbug]

I'll disagree, since you asked for the MOST OBVIOUS problem...

In my own tiny experience, I've found it to be pitch.

Wherever the base is (A435-A455), playing in tune with others.
And the insistence that whatever one is playing is the "proper" pitch, no matter how far off it is.

[Mojo workin']

I would have to agree with Bloke.

Frustrating when I show up to a well paying gig and someone can not play in tune or has a bad sound.

On the other hand, a friend of mine tells me that on more than one occasion when he has played in a community band, other tubists have commented on the "sound of his tuba" along with other things to confirm the implication that sound is established solely on the kind of tuba that one plays.

[TubaSteve]

Well speaking as an amateur....I will say that rhythm is my biggest challenge. I have had a great number of people complement me on my style and sound, but no one ever said that about my rhythm.

I will say a quick way of telling..... The guy who has three little kids at home, works a 50+ hour week at regular job, is his daughters soccer coach, works on everyones repair projects and has other hobbies and fights for his time for band 2 to 3 nights a week is most likely not the pro...

Steve

[MaryAnn]

It is ENSEMBLE SKILLS.

The amateur may have a high technique level on his instrument, may have excellent pitch, may be able to play in rhythm, but when it comes to playing with others, he is "internally focused."

The pro, when it comes to playing with others, is "externally focused."

So...the pro, when intonation within the ensemble starts to wander, immediately moves his pitch to blend with what is going on around him. The amateur sits on his pitch and expects everyone else to move to match him.

Same with rhythm; the pro always changes what he is doing to blend with what is going on around him, and the amatuer sits where he is, expecting everyone else to do the blending. That is why amateur groups have such pitch and rhythm problems. You will see the entire group of them stomping their feet, to different rhythms, and playing louder than those around them, trying to force everyone else to conform. Some of them will have the tuner clipped to the bell and be looking at what it says, on the music stand. What you get is disjointed cacaphony.

It may be true that "Pro" means you get paid, but in my mind "Pro" means you have ensemble skills, whether you get paid or not.

MA

[The Big Ben]

Amateur vs. Pro.

Hard to define correctly....

Amateur should not be a perjorative. I'm an amateur but because of my school experience, I have many 'pro' points of view.

A 'pro' plays what the audience wants in a way that makes the audience happy. It may be 'Murf and the Murftones' or the CSO- if the audience is happy, the pro has done the job.

A 'pro' shows up on time, music prepared, instrument in good condition, in proper attire for the situation and physically ready for performance.

A 'pro' keeps the drama at home and does what is necessary to get along and be a good member of the group. Playing in tune and playing in balance with the rest of the group are part of this.

A 'pro' works at the craft and art of playing the horn and is constantly trying to improve their abilities as a musician.

My HS director had bands on the side as well as getting lots of calls from the Seattle union to play all of the reed instruments but mainly the alto and tenor saxaphone. His career lasted from the age of 14 until Altzheimer's silenced him at age 75. I try to follow these rules he taught to me but still think of myself as a amateur because I don't do it for a living or even to get paid. As a matter of fact, I will be paying to play.

I guess to me 'amateur' vs. 'pro' is an attitude towards musical performance rather than a set of skills.

Duke also said it well: "No Swing? Ain't got a thing". So, I guess I go with rhythm. I agree with Mary Ann, too, with "Ensemble Skills"- the idea of 'oneness of the group'.

Just my feelings...

[Uncle Buck]

I realize that Bloke only invited "those who play for dough" to answer this question, and I don't even come close to falling into that category, . . .

but

. . .

There was a short (about six months) period of time in my life when I believe I was playing on a "professional" level (when I was finishing up my masters degree). One thing that was different about my practice habits during that time from any other time before or after was the amount of time I was spending with a metronome.

So, I agree with Bloke.

[iiipopes]

I would agree with that. From the first day in band class in elementary school through my best paying pro gigs, and helping to keep a variety of "amateur" groups together, fitting in and making the rest of the ensemble sound better because you are playing is it. Of course, this is a broad statement, encompassing tone, tuning, intonation, rhythm, in a word, all of it.

[peter birch]

the professional does for money what the amateur does for free

Barry Green wrote

"...the amateur practices until he gets it right, the professional practices until he cannot get it wrong..."

in "the mastery of music"

[kegmcnabb]

It is ENSEMBLE SKILLS.

Absolutely, although (in deference to Bloke) I specifically think rhythm and time are probably most important to this.

It is also interesting to note, how many times this is brought to my attention by pianists, both professional and non-professional. So many times I find that pianists' time (even those who are highly experienced and recomended) is, shall we say, overly flexible . I don't know if this is from so many years playing by themselves but it seems to be common.

[WoodSheddin]

what is the ONE playing characteristic that YOU find seems to be lacking in the "average" amateur player.

Your statement only deals with the professional musicians who earn the majority of their livelihood from playing. Remember that the music profession includes other jobs such as band director, repairman, instrument sales, composers, etc.

But on the limited topic of pro players vs amateur players, I would say the one playing characteristic is having superlative abilities in the vast majority of playing characteristics.

There are plenty of amateurs who have great sounds. Others have fast fingers. Others have great intonation. Others have great rhythm. Others interpret well. Others know the literature by heart. Others sight ready well. Others are ....

There are working pro players with mediocre sounds. Others have slow fingers. Others have iffy intonation. Others have sloppy rhythm. Other interpret ok. Others know little literature by heart. Others sight read poorly. Others are ...

The successful pro players though have the vast majority of the characteristics at levels well above the norm. The elite pro players have all of the characteristics at higher levels then the other jealous pro players.

[Rick Denney]

what is the ONE playing characteristic that YOU find seems to be lacking in the "average" amateur player.

I asked Lee Hipp once whether it was more important to have technique or musicianship to be a successful professional, and he said, "Yes."

That perspective seems to agree with Sean. The successful gigging pros seem to be able to put the whole package together. I'll add that the package may not be the same in all genres.

They also have the ability to keep going, no matter what. Amateurs get lost when they mess up and are forced to stop. Pros may screw up, but they don't lose their place when doing so. They keep going. They don't highlight their mistakes or draw attention to them. Part of that is staying within themselves and their abiities. Amateurs mess that up, too.

Rick "who is very familiar with amateur mistakes" Denney

[tubajoe]

Another great topic folks!! (now what kind of valve oil do you use...? ha ha, I'm kidding.) It's a worthwhile topic, so I'll pontificate a little more...


To me the 'professional' differentiation is probably that of being able to ADAPT very very quickly. ...to be able to make something musical and cohesive with little to no rehearsal at all... and to be comfortable in any situation (ie "act and sound professional")

...it's a matter of being able to turn on the "musicality" and being able to sound polished (as much as can be) virtually instantly. Flip that switch.

I think overall it is a "confidence of musical opinion" thing. (which does encapsulate rhythm, ensemble skills etc... but those are only elements of it all) The difference is that with "pros" there is no question as to what the music is... regardless if it is right or not initially, it IS what it is. You put IT out there, then you fix it (if needed). In an amateur or school situation, it is the other way around… you let the conductor tell you what IT is, through hours and hours of rehearsal and you gradually figure it out.

In the real world, rehearsal time is at an extreme minimum… if at all. Rehearsal is a luxury, and honestly, rarely happens… and if it does, it hardly ever replicates a performance environment like school or amateur rehearsal does.


A funny story from a guitar playing colleague of mine… he has spent a lot of time (and has made decent money) playing in gospel churches of upper Manhattan and the Bronx. One of the churches he plays has all the hymns / tunes etc written in the key of C... The first time, there was no explanation beforehand that tunes would be in other keys.. But then, the music director counted off songs like G, 2, 3, 4… or Eb, 2, 3, 4…. Whatever the letter that he announced on count one of the one-bar countoff was the key the song was in. Needless to say, the guitar player learned how to transpose REALLY fast… he had 3 counts to figure it out.

...that's what I'm talking about... the ability to adjust and adapt on the fly.

[tbn.al]

Amateurs get lost when they mess up and are forced to stop. Pros may screw up, but they don't lose their place when doing so. They keep going.

Rick hit the nail on the head. I am an amateur who gets to play quite a bit with pros and the above statement is what stands out for me. S#!# happens, but it doesn't seem to affect them or the music they are playing. They just have the ability to get through it and amatuers mostly don't. A pro has mastered stuff so much harder that what he is generally asked to perform in a group that he's only working a maybe 70% of capacity. I'm sitting beside him playing the same piece and running 95%. If something goes wrong I don't have any reserve brain cells to redirect toward the problem.

[peter birch]

I have another observation on this matter. I have worked with both pro and am musicians.
pofessionals are much more encouraging and way less destructive in their coments and criticism than many amateurs.
i have been on the receiving end of more sarcasm and unhelpfulness from amateur colleagues and only once from a professional (an opera singer who will remain nameless)

[WoodSheddin]

Thought I would add one more thing. Survival consists of intune and ontime. Miss these two and EVERYONE notices.

[Arkietuba]

Every fall semester the brass studios meet as a whole during the first week to talk to the freshman/transfer students to help them out. The trumpet instructor (who is a very accomplished player) always says this quote:

"The biggest difference between an amateur and and professional is: An amateur will practice something 'till they get it right...the professional will practice something 'till they can't get it wrong."

This is true in almost every case I've personally seen. I know a lot of fantastic players (non-professional) who are not very consistant. They will do well in rehearsal and not worry about it in their practice time...but when the performance comes around, they mess up or it's a little sloppy. They didn't take the time to work on it...you need to practice 'till you can't mess up...that makes you a professional. Oh, by the way, they have good rhythm and play in tune...

[Tubaguy56]

I believe the difference lies in adaptability. What I mean is, a player can get to a point where he can play all the notes on the page. Then he does it with better intonation and time. then he does it musically. Now I've met dozens of people in college and high school who can do this. the thing they can't do, is do that all on the spot. Thinking faster on the horn, thats what I think seperates pros from amateurs. Adapatability.

[Leland]

When they play, you listen and think, "Oh, that's how it's supposed to sound..."

You don't hear a pro-quality player working hard during a performance. Okay, yes, there are physical demands, but I'm talking about mental effort. It just comes out with intent & purpose, and it sounds natural and engaging.

How they get there is through timing, pitch, ensemble clarity, and all that other good stuff. The end result is to make it sound easy.

[windshieldbug]

OK, I've been thinking about this since my first post, thinking that MaryAnn got it right, but also thinking deep down that bloke knows a thing or two as well, so I'll propose

Listening Skills

A person that knows what they're doing plays the rhythm right because they know what they're doing without being hesitant, but also has ensemble and pitch skills, BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT THEY"RE DOING, BUT LISTENING WHILE THEY DO IT

[tubatooter1940]

I agree with in tune and on time. We all know pros with terrible faults but a player has to be on time within the arrangement as well or we can never work with him (or her). If you don't know when he's coming in you can never predict or hook up with him.
My pet peeve is a drummer who lets the guitar players get away with rushing. The man in charge of the beat has to rise up and roar, if necessary.
I love a pro who can listen well and play something appropriate at the same time. A lifetime pro player will also make comments amd observations between tunes that turn light bulbs on in my head. Fun!