Eastman vs. Debt

[red0radio0head]

I am almost finished with my undergraduate degree. Having been through 4 years of school already, I think I can help you some.

IF I WERE YOU, I would go somewhere where I could go for free. Yes, I know that sounds selfish, but seriously. Think about it, go to school somewhere where you can go for free (or almost, or closest to, whatever), and then, spend your money where it really matters--grad school. You are more likely to be focused during your grad school years anyway. When I was auditioning for colleges while I was in high school, I didn't really think much about money being an issue. Thankfully, I didn't go somewhere where it costs a lot to go. I could've made a huge mistake.

I am also a euphonium player, and getting a euph. performance degree is a tough cookie. What are you going to do with it? Military band? Teach? Those are your two main options. ...and if you want to teach, you're more than likely going to have to go to grad school. What I'm saying is, getting a performance degree takes a lot more planning ahead than you'd realize.

Ultimately, it's up to you. I also have parents that should have retired long ago, but still work because I am still in school. I personally hate knowing that my parents are still working for that reason. Really think about the financial burden that you will be putting on your family (unless you're really well off, which I am not, haha).

Hope this helps.

[lgb&dtuba]

Nobody can put a price tag on the world class musical education you'll receive or take away the pride that you will carry with you for the rest of your life of doing your best at one of the top conservatories in the world.

Actually, they did. $80,000.

I respectfully must disagree with you on this. Working class stiffs can't afford the luxury of a feel-good education that only gives you pride (and not a living). That's a luxury for lids who's parents have the money to burn and $80,000 plus living expenses is pocket change. And will be handed a position in Daddy's firm after graduation. Or marry rich.

The fact that the money was brought up in the OP tells me that we aren't dealing with a moneyed scion here.

[circusboy]

I have to say that I agree with EuphDad entirely.

The regrets that I have from not spending money on something that brought me closer to my dreams far outweigh those from spending too much money on such somethings.

I have an excellent education from an excellent and fairly expensive (for that era) university. I am now in an entirely different field from that listed on my diploma, but the education in that field has enriched my life and informed my world-view, philosophy, spirituality, critical thinking, creativity and ethos in such a way that I don't think I'd be where I am today without it.

An education is something that you'll have for the rest of your life. So is a regret.

If you are truly passionate about playing your euph, and you think that Eastman is the place that's going to inform your playing better than anyplace else, then you must go there. If you never get that orchestra job (if that's what you want), you don't fancy a life in the military or in education, then you can find a job in some other field and still play your horn to your heart's desire (I'll say that again, "heart's desire") in plenty of non-professional contexts while your money job pays off the debt.

If that doesn't describe your feelings for playing--or if the financial burden would truly jeopardize you or your family's well-being--then go somewhere cheaper.

[Tubaguy56]

lets say you did major in euph performance, if things don't pan out, you can always get certified and then teach. I disagree with the double majoring if all you really want to do is perform, then again, I'm entirely prepared to be broke when I'm 35......

Now, if you really really want to major in euph performance, you have to go where you can get the best education, because if you're not, someone else is, and with as many euph jobs as there are out there, that is an advantage you cannot afford to lose.

[windshieldbug]

Another view from left field...

I started music school as a euphonium major, but at the end of my sophmore year I auditioned to change my major to tuba.

I continued to play euphonium, and in my senior year I was the only tuba in the wind ensemble, and euphonium in the brass choir. I would suggest keeping your options open as well, unless you know of an impending opening in a premier military ensemble and think you have a shot. And keep in mind that teaching at a post-high-school will require AT LEAST a masters, if not a doctorate for anything full time.

I wouldn't have traded my music education for ANYTHING, but I didn't start out life owing that kind of money, either.

[KevinMadden]

Its been said on this board before that an Undergraduate education is about just that education. graduate studies should be where you go intensely into 'job training'

when I was looking at colleges two years ago I 'knew' that i wanted to play the tuba all day and try to find someone to pay me for it, I would teach on the side if I had to. So, I entered into Ithaca as a 4 1/2 major (which is a combination Music ed.a dn performance) once i got a little deeper into the education side I realized that teaching (at least in the public school arena) was not something I wanted to do I dropped the ed and am now a performance major. I was not comfortable with only studying tuba though, I added a Minor in english and am currently taking other courses that could prepare me to pursue musicology in the future (as well as some intro to brass repair type courses) at this point in my life i'm practicing my butt off, making great progress, and have realized that i'll be happy with most any music related career.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that wherever you go you need to have room to be able to try different things, and to have options. You really dont get that at a conservatory. I don't know exactly how Eastman is related to the U of R, find out what kind of time you'll have to pursue other courses.

If you're currently interested in Music education, don't go to Eastman, Potsdam has a good reputation for Ed, and Ithaca has one of the best reputations for Ed (100% job placement) and both are cheaper than Eastman.

If you want to perform, go to UNT or Royal northern in the U.K. (where Mead teaches yes?) those are the teachers as far as I can tell, and then be prepared to enlist.

If you don't know what you want to do consider B.A. Music with multiple concentrations/minors, BMO (Bachelor of Music with an outside field IC offers this, I dont know if other colleges do) Performance degree with minor(s) Education & performance double, or B.A. something else with a music minor.

Bottom line, get the most bang for your buck wherever you go, make sure that it is affordable with a minimum of debt (about 1/2 or less than what you're talking about now) and will give you a good all-around education. specialize when you get to grad school.

[Ryan_Beucke]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the euph teacher at Eastman was a trombone player.

Mark Kellogg is a fantastic euphonium player in addition to being a trombone player. He is not just a trombone teacher who "knows all the fingerings".

[Lauronie]

I'm about to start my DMA in performance at UNT, after completing my MM and BM here as well. I'm only 22, but I would agree that much of your undergrad is spent figuring things out. I worked my butt off, and I wouldn't say that this time was wasted. However, most of the graduate students who came to UNT from other places weren't really at much of a disadvantage, in the end.

For me there were some definite benefits to doing my undergraduate at the "best" school for euphonium. I got to study with Brian Bowman, I was only a few hours away from my home town, I was able to play in some fantastic ensembles, and I know that I was pushed to improve by just being in an environment with so many amazing players.

However, I am MUCH more focused as a graduate student. I think that a person who works hard and decides to commit to music enough to attend a great grad school will have no trouble getting in the groove somewhere like UNT, or Eastman, or any "dream school."

Sometimes I wish I had done my undergraduate somewhere else, just so I could have other experiences, and a more well-rounded background. But, in the end, Dr. Bowman is the man, and at least all my diplomas will match.

[Tom]

80,000$ I don't think is a reasonable amount for an education by someone who is probably not a euph player but a trombone player. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the euph teacher at Eastman was a trombone player.

What is that supposed to mean?

Euphonium players should only study with euphonium players, tuba players with only tuba players, and trombone players only with trombone players?!?!

That's a pretty closed minded approach to take to learning music in my opinion. There is an awful lot that can be learned from other low brass players, vocalists, woodwind players, and even string players.

A good musician is a good musician regardless of their choice of instrument.

[Getzeng50s]

I got into Eastman, and it was my first choice school, but it would put me and my family into about $80,000 in debt. Is it worth it?

My other choices are Potsdam and Ithaca if that helps.

Well.. if ur parents are paying. Who cares! if ur paying.. who cares. go to the best schools, get the best education possible, and figure it out later.

[MikeS]

80,000$ I don't think is a reasonable amount for an education by someone who is probably not a euph player but a trombone player. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the euph teacher at Eastman was a trombone player.

The late Reginall Kell was once introduced to someone at a party along with the comment that Kell played in the symphony. When he was asked what he played, Kell responded, "I play music on the clarinet." We are musicians who happen to play low brass instruments. If a teacher can communicate to you how to produce music and inspire you to do it, he or she is a good teacher no matter what instrument they play.

I was fortunate to study with a really extraordinary teacher in college. I remember some of the things he taught me about technique. What I really remember every time I play is him saying, "If it doesn't make me want to dance, you're wasting my time." I seem to remember, also, that trumpet players, woodwind players, and even singers used to study with Arnold Jacobs.

Go someplace where you feel the opportunities exist for you to grow as a musician. Go someplace where they also make you read some Dostoyevsky and learn some calculus. The best musicians I know are well-rounded, curious, educated people who bring a wide range of life experiences and interests into their music.

[joshwirt]

Also, just because you take out $80K in loans now.....doesn't mean that's all you pay back.

With the rising interest rates (thanks to the lack of support from the White House) on student loans, I'd be concerned about taking $80K in loans before I even start my adult life.

Yes, you're investing in your future. Yes, Eastman is a fabulous school. But there are a lot of other places that you can do your undergraduate, get great experience and learn from great teachers than just Eastman.

My advice, save your money. Find a school that is more reasonably priced for your undergrad. Work your butt off. Audition like mad for competitions and festivals. No teacher, however 'great' they are, can replace the time spent in the practice room. Then, find a grad school that will pay for your education.

*Disclaimer - I did my undergraduate in not quite 4 years and racked up about $30K in debt....no, parents didn't pay. Then did 1 year at a prestigious conservatory abroad and DOUBLED my student debt*

You'll need a pretty good job when you get out JUST to make the MINIMUM monthly payments on $80K.....think about your average rent X 2.....then add bills, food, car insurance, car payment, etc.

Oh, and that $80K over the next 30 years? Yeah, double it. Is Eastman worth $160K? You could become a lawyer or a doctor for that kinda dough.

Good luck!!!

-Josh

[TubaRay]

(thanks to the lack of support from the White House)

I'm not a fan of "the White House" and haven't been for decades. However, IF IT IS TRUE that "the White House" is trying to protect me for being forced to pay for other kids kollij ejacashuns, God bless "the White House".

AMEN!!!!!

[Alex Reeder]

Alright, let me clear this up, because I don't want people to get the wrong idea about Mark Kellogg. He is NOT just a trombone player who also teaches euphonium. He is a true virtuoso on both. This is NOTHING like sending an oboe player to study with a flute teacher. Would you complain about sending a tuba player to study with Ben Pierce because he also plays euphonium?

[tubapress]

Trust me...Mark Kellogg's euph chops are great. They were great when we were in school and I'm sure they're at least as good now.

Regarding your decision about whether to spend the big bucks to attend Eastman: It is always a difficult job trying to balance the various aspects of schools when comparing them. You have to balance the practical side ($$$) with what your gut tells you (I'm always inclined to follow my gut). For me it was fairly simple..Eastman was the last school to give me an answer. I was all set to go to another very fine institution when I heard the good news from ESM and from that moment there was no question in my mind that I was heading to Rochester. Then we set about trying to make it happen financially.

You really are investing in yourself and when push comes to shove, you owe it to yourself to choose to attend the school where you think you will grow the most, if you can find a way to make the financial aspects work. It is not always easy to know what the answer is to that, so you just have to trust your instincts.

No school is ever a perfect situation..there will always be things that are standout and things that you wish were different, but it is what you make out of the situation.

There were a lot of great things about Eastman when I attended. But the things that may have been the most impactful of all were working with some truly talented fellow students (like Mark Kellogg) and the relationships that developed during those years. You will make some wonderful friends (some for life), some of who may impact your career as a musician.

Let's not forget the impact that the name Eastman can have either. Does it win you an audition by itself? Nope. But in my experience it CAN open some doors for you along the way.

Good luck with your decision. Remember..this is your education, your life..this is one time it needs to be about YOU!

Gary "who has run out of fingers and toes trying to count how many years ago he was at Eastman" Press

[MaryAnn]

I'm curious about the assumption that this person's parents are not making the decision as to how much money can/will be spent on an undergraduate degree. If they are not rolling in dough, I doubt, unless they are, uh, well, lacking in foresight, that they are going to let the poster make an $80k decision. MY parents certainly would not have thought that at age 17 (when I *clearly* could not find my rear with both hands) that I could or should make that level of financial decision.

I doubt this is a troll, but I suspect that the parents have more input than is being implied. Unless, of course, they are rolling in money. In many parts of the country you can still buy a *house* for $80k.

MA

[tubapress]

Absolutely, MaryAnn. That should have been more prominent in my post! I hinted at this when I mentioned "if you can make the financial aspects work", but this may have been too subtle. You raise a very important point that sometimes even when a school is deemed ideal in every other way, the financial hurdles seem insurmountable. Sometimes this can be somewhat minimized with a combination of merit scholarships, work-study scholarships, grants and loans, but the reality is that sometimes it simply is not a workable financial situation. Hopefully, if this is the school that this person ultimate decides is the right one, the money aspects can be worked out.

Sorry if this was misleading.

GP

I'm curious about the assumption that this person's parents are not making the decision as to how much money can/will be spent on an undergraduate degree. If they are not rolling in dough, I doubt, unless they are, uh, well, lacking in foresight, that they are going to let the poster make an $80k decision. MY parents certainly would not have thought that at age 17 (when I *clearly* could not find my rear with both hands) that I could or should make that level of financial decision.

I doubt this is a troll, but I suspect that the parents have more input than is being implied. Unless, of course, they are rolling in money. In many parts of the country you can still buy a *house* for $80k.

MA

[sloan]

I'm curious about the assumption that this person's parents are not making the decision as to how much money can/will be spent on an undergraduate degree.

I think this cuts both ways. See my post (above) where I said that the student should consider the $80k deficit to be the *student's* debt, and not the parents.

I'm in the middle of putting my second son through college. The deal is pretty simple - we (as parents) supply a certain amount, and they (the kids) provide the rest (as needed), beginning with day-to-day expenses during the academic year (earned during the summer). One went to a very expensive school very close to Eastman (actually, he took lessons at Eastman); he contributed a SUBSTANTIAL merit scholarship (about 1/2 of a full ride) and took on some debt (not $80k, but given his current salary at Google he would have laughed at a mere $80k debt). The other is (shudder) a music ed major at a nice cheap state school (Roll Tide!). He would have been a credible candidate at Eastman - but he did his own research and decided that Eastman (and the like) was not what he wanted. If he had decided to pursue Eastman and been accepted, then he would have been taking on a considerable debt. His debt...his choice. As it turned out, that decision never came up - his major decisions were made long before money was the issue.

These days, I think any reasonably employable young person can easily repay $80k just by making slightly better decisions (or settling for a bit less) on the car purchases they will make over the next 40 years.

so...what's more important to you? An Eastman experience (note that I don't concentrate on the "diploma" aspect) or better new cars purchased on a faster schedule? That's the kid's choice. If he's not mature enough to make it, there are other things he can do with the next 4 years of his life while he grows up.

The parents have had 17 years to save up for college - they should provide a basic financial foundation.

The kid has 40 years to pay off any debt - HE should be taking responsibility for college loans.

[tubatooter1940]

In many parts of the country you can still buy a *house* for $80k.

MA

You sure can around here. You may have to invite some friends over to help you take the wheels off of it.
Think of the adventure of buying one that has been rented for 20 years. Home Depot here we come.

[MikeMason]

If the entire thing truly has to be paid back by the student,i think it is criminal to allow an 18 year old to sign up for a lifetime of servitude to Sally Mae(the borrower really IS slave to the lender).On my favorite talk radio show-Dave Ramsey, he had a couple call in just today.They had both gone to Vanderbilt and had a combined debt of 190,000.They lived off the debt for several years but neither of them ever finished the degree(this can happen-pregnancy,physical chop problems,many other scenarios).They're making around 30k together.They are miserable and will be for many years.Even if you do get the music degree,you could end up making what they're making.(your future spouse could also bring a boatload of debt to your marriage ).Remember-student loan debt is not bankruptable.No matter what ,you WILL have to pay it back.You are not studying to be a Dr. or Lawyer or engineer.Your future earning prospects,even if all your plans happen,are not good.Think hard....