Fixing Fiber-Sousas

tubatom91 · Post by **tubatom91** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:27 am

I am currently thinking about tackling the schools 20 or so fiberglass sousa problems. We have these sousas most are at least 50 years old. Some are King but Most are Conns. Some to the joints in the fiberglass tubing is startign to crack or has cracked already,and alot of little tiny hole in various part of valve sections. One of them is missing a valve stem,another the valve body and glass tubeing are swinging around totally unconnected. Most are full of gunk,and tinted a very intresting tan colour. I am wanting to learn how to do these repairs myself considering it takes the local music store about 1-2 months to get a few new valve pads! any help would be much appreciated.

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:34 am

Finally! Something on TubeNet I actually have some experience doing!

In college, I had a friend who played souzy in the U of Washington Husky Band. He had brought his souzy home for the summer "to practice". He was involved in lots of other things and not much (none) practicing got done. I was known for having a little experience working with fiberglass and, the day before fall marching practice was to start, he came to me and said he needed to have a few problems with his horn sorted out. I went to his dorm room and he hauled out his horn from beneath old clothes, shoes and all sort of other dorm room crap. There were five or six long cracks and the braces holding the inner hoop to the outer hoop were hanging loose. I got him to practice on time...

Short story long, go to a hardware store or a marine supply store and have a look a West System products. They have a booklet that describes their products and methods of fixing various problems. If there is a shop which sells canoes and kayaks, you might try there also. Construction and repairwise, a fiberglass souzy is most like a fiberglass canoe.

Good luck. If you have questions, PM me and I'll see what I can do to help you.

Jeff

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:12 pm

Uh, probably more like 40 than 50. Didn't Conn only start marketing fiberglass in 1960?

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:12 pm

Oh, yeah...

You could probably mix and match parts from the brass sections and, since the brass sections unbolt and are relatively small that way, perhaps your band director could let you ship them to one of the repairs guys here to have them made shipshape.

Parts like valve stems, springs, felts, etc. should be available from the Usual Sources (Allied Music Supply, etc.) or, again, one of the fellas who post/advertise here.

Jeff

tubatom91 · Post by **tubatom91** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:02 pm

I can't tell you a definate date on these horns but I know that they are original Conn "demos" My school got them to test the durability and playability in "real life" I guess Conn had a deal that said they would fix and replace anything if needed while this trial period was going on. At the end they gave my school the horns to keep. I might go to the marine shop downtown today if I can!

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:38 pm

Either way, congrats and best wishes on your project. As issues arise along the way, and they will, I'm sure the entire TubeNet freak jury will be glad to pitch in with answers to questions, as we all appreciate good efforts to keep worthy instruments playing...even if they are fiberglass!

tubatom91 · Post by **tubatom91** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:34 pm

Will a 2 part epoxy work?. I know I actually have some so I might not have to by any.

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:59 pm

tubatom91 wrote:Will a 2 part epoxy work?. I know I actually have some so I might not have to by any.

"Two part epoxy" which you buy in tubes begins setting in about a minute. That is not nearly enough time to get things arranged and aligned.

I would suggest that you research West System products and learn a bit about the products. They are two part epoxies with a variety of hardeners and additives which can be used for different purposes

Check out: http://www.westsystem.com . Look over all the information on the website before you start repairing the horns. You will be glad you did...

I would suggest that you also get some electrical snap ties (the kind used for making wire bundles) to use a clamps to hold things together while the epoxy cures. The purpose to this is similar to using wire to hold together brass pieces while they are being soldered.

Jeff

SplatterTone · Post by **SplatterTone** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:18 pm

I'll bet this guy can give you some good info on working fiberglass.
viewtopic.php?t=19656

Tom Waid · Post by **Tom Waid** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:37 pm

The Big Ben wrote:
tubatom91 wrote:Will a 2 part epoxy work?. I know I actually have some so I might not have to by any.
"Two part epoxy" which you buy in tubes begins setting in about a minute. That is not nearly enough time to get things arranged and aligned.

I would suggest that you research West System products and learn a bit about the products. They are two part epoxies with a variety of hardeners and additives which can be used for different purposes

Check out: http://www.westsystem.com . Look over all the information on the website before you start repairing the horns. You will be glad you did...

I would suggest that you also get some electrical snap ties (the kind used for making wire bundles) to use a clamps to hold things together while the epoxy cures. The purpose to this is similar to using wire to hold together brass pieces while they are being soldered.

Jeff

West System Epoxy is wonderful stuff, but I would like to reinforce the idea that you must fully educate yourself on how to use it. The company goes out of its way to provide good educational materials about how to use their products. Avail yourself of this knowledge. I've built boats with West System Epoxy and have performed repairs on boats, cars, and airplanes with West System Epoxy. My successes have been due to following the instructions and my failures have been due to ignoring them.

tubatom91 · Post by **tubatom91** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:09 am

I think I might bring my camera to school and start catalouging damage as I come across it and post some pics on here.

TubaSteve · Post by **TubaSteve** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:33 am

bloke wrote:Woven fiberglass cloth completely saturated with a commercial grade 24-hr. epoxy is the best way to repair cracks, in my experience. You can read about this on the packages of the products that you'll find available for sale. How nice the repairs appear will be up to you.

I am with you on this one, however I have had very good luck with the over the counter brands of epoxy. Deffinately use epoxy vs fiberglass resin. The repair is many times stronger with the woven fiberglass cloth than without. The biggest thing is to start with clean surfaces. No adheasive will bond if the surface is not prepared correctly. This also means that the surface must be roughed up with some coarse abrasive (I use 36 grit on my Milwaukee 5" grinder) to give the repair good tooth to bond to. I have used this method to repair many snowmobile hoods and other fiberglass items and find that the repair is often stronger than the original area. I usually will lay down three layers on a repair, and make each patch larger than the other one. Use a bondo spreader and work the epoxy on to the area to be repaired, then lay the cloth on to the wet epoxy. Work it well bu dabbing it with the spreader until the cloth is completely soaked through and it will become almost transparent. The cloth will tend to shed some small fibers, so you will have to remove them. That is why I find that the faster drying epoxys are easier to work with as I can then go ahead and add the successive layers all in one day. The finished patch can then be topcoated with fillers and primer/surfacer to prepare for finish paint. The last sled hood that I did was in 13 pieces and I only had 11 of them, (the other must still have been at the tree). It was strong enough that it held up to having the sled roll over and being dragged upside down for 300 feet without the repairs failing! One final warning, Wear a mask when grinding fiberglass. The fibers will cause lung damage if you inhale them!
Steve

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:52 pm

TubaSteve wrote:Deffinately use epoxy vs fiberglass resin.

I think you mean "polyester" resin, which is the stuff found in most over-the-counter fiberglass repair kits. I wholeheartedly agree.

I also agree with the recommendation to use the West system epoxy resins. They are commercial grade epoxies that can be formulated to set slowly if you prefer.

I grind down the surrounding area so that the patch will 1.) be level with the original material, and 2.) not be sticking to gelcoat.

You'll have to use filler and paint for the finish work of hand-laid fiberglass. The original finish was gelcoat, which is usually sprayed in the mold before the fiberglass is originally laid. Without a mold, doing anything useful with gelcoat is just about impossible.

Rick "who has a sack full of West products for repair work on the Martin" Denney

dmmorris · Post by **dmmorris** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:42 pm

Rick Denney wrote: I also agree with the recommendation to use the West system epoxy resins. They are commercial grade epoxies that can be formulated to set slowly if you prefer.

I grind down the surrounding area so that the patch will 1.) be level with the original material, and 2.) not be sticking to gelcoat.

You'll have to use filler and paint for the finish work of hand-laid fiberglass. The original finish was gelcoat, which is usually sprayed in the mold before the fiberglass is originally laid. Without a mold, doing anything useful with gelcoat is just about impossible.

Rick "who has a sack full of West products for repair work on the Martin" Denney

I've been using this stuff for about 20+ years, although my experience has been on sailboats. Their website is chock-full of great info. Like Rick, I keep a gallon jug of this stuff in the garage at all times along with an assortment of their thickening agents. It's amazing the stuff I've repaired over the years with this epoxy system.

One note of caution is that oils degrade epoxies, so the parts MUST be free of oils to start and MUST be painted after repair to keep oils away. This is not as big-a-deal with polyester resins.

I also recommend using the multi-directional or even biaxial non-woven matting rather than the 2-dimensional weave matting. It is strong and it is a LOT easier to work into smooth shapes over tightly radiused curves than woven matting. Lots of thin layers is far superior to one thick layer.

Polyester resins and matting are great also, but the chemicals (methyl-ethyl ketone...for example) are a lot harsher in my opinion.

tubatooter1940 · Post by **tubatooter1940** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:36 pm

I hear that there is no limit to shelf life of West Marine epoxy. I always keep some in the shop and I recommend buying the plungers to get the proportion right. There are thickeners available to make putty. I use fine saw dust to patch wood.
Interlux Marine Paints have a system for most everything. I found their factory reps to be fountains of information and glad to help.

tubatom91 · Post by **tubatom91** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:05 pm

The 2 horns I took SN's off of started H78 and E06. Maybe that'll give you an approx age. I also took some pictures to be put up later!

tubatom91 · Post by **tubatom91** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:56 pm

Dave Hayami · Post by **Dave Hayami** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:03 am

It looks like you have a couple of Conn 22K sousaphones.
One of them appears to be an early model with a longer fiberglass first branch (as compared to the 36K). Valve parts should be the same as the 20K Brass sousaphone.
Good luck, be careful using either epoxies/polyester resins and glass cloth
when repairing them.
Dave Hayami

tubatom91 · Post by **tubatom91** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:23 pm

I have a few more Questions for you experts out there. Best way to get grime out of valves (without destroying them!). Best paint to get a nice shine on the bells. And how to clean up the valve section a bit.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:09 am

Well, except for the crushed neck, nothing looks really that bad, and since you can get new necks for the valve blocks, that's probably not that big of a deal, either; just a few more bucks for that one.

What kind of grime? If it's black or brown, just rinse and buff slightly. If it's green, you may have to use a little bit more. I like a dilute solution of water, vinegar, salt and dish soap to clean the items that have turned totally green, soak them for a minute then use a soft old toothbrush, then rinse, and rinse, and rinse, and...did I say rinse?

But yours don't look that bad. Probably just good warm (not hot -- it could dissolve what's left of the lacuqer) dish soapy water and the insides of the casings and ports with the same old soft toothbrush or purpose made snake should be fine.