Pedals in Pictures and French mouthpieces

[Mark]

... but there are some more blasstisimo pedals.

There are no "blasstisimo" notes in Pictures.

[UDELBR]

But remember it has/had two or three ascending valves.

I question this. I own a Couesnon 6-valve French tuba, and have seen and played a fair number of others. Haven't seen any ascending valves though.

[UDELBR]

I own a Couesnon 6-valve French tuba.

Awesome! Do you have the original mouthpiece?

Yup. It came with 2, one slightly larger than the other. The first photo shows (L to R) the two 'pieces that came with the horn. Next is a Bach 11c trombone mouthpiece, and finally a John Stork tuba mouthpiece.



Next is an interesting shot of the throat of one of the French tuba mouthpieces. It's star shaped.

[Rick Denney]

It produced a very nice sound that was much more tuba-like than a euphonium, and it had a sort of fat low end. But it did not have a lot of power down there. It was fairly brilliant on Bydlo and the Hungarian March. But the low stuff was more felt than heard. This was most likely due to my lack of experience with these horns, however.

I asked the same question as Bob once upon a time. It's clear that the French C tuba was intended to be played with a euphonium-size mouthpiece. I don't know where the fat low range comes from, though. I'd like to compare the taper designs, but they always looked like euphoniums to me.

By the way, I'm glad you've decided to put a self-portrait in your avatar.



Regarding the notion of ascending valves, I would like to point out that the tubing coming back into a valve is usually the same size as the tubing going out of it. Thus, whether the valve removes a loop or adds it, when in the circuit it's cylindrical. For a C euphonium to make the low Gb in Pictures, it would have to add a length of tubing to the main bugle. Maybe it adds some and takes some away (the combination of a descending and ascending valve), but that note is below the fundamental of the open bugle so tubing will have to be added.

Rick "who has also never seen an ascending valve in pictures of French C tubas" Denney

[windshieldbug]

Next is an interesting shot of the throat of one of the French tuba mouthpieces. It's star shaped

A Couesnon Guilbaut Rayee?

[Art Hovey]

I wonder if that star-shaped throat is the work of some curious person with a triangular file and too much spare time? Paul Bernard's method book for petite French tubas and saxhorns shows diagrams of the mouthpieces, but no such throats. The interesting feature in those diagrams is the fact that the bowl diameter a short distance into the mouthpiece is GREATER than the diameter at the rim. I have never seen such a mouthpiece in person, but his diagrams indicate that it was standard practice at the time of the original publication.

[UDELBR]

I wonder if that star-shaped throat is the work of some curious person with a triangular file and too much spare time?

Nope. After checking Bug's info on Guilbaut Rayee, I see it's a righteous factory-made 'piece. I can't imagine the rationale behind the star though...

The interesting feature in those diagrams is the fact that the bowl diameter a short distance into the mouthpiece is GREATER than the diameter at the rim. I have never seen such a mouthpiece in person, but his diagrams indicate that it was standard practice at the time of the original publication.

Yep. The larger of the two mouthpieces that came with the horn (and is marked "Couesnon") definitely has this. I'd always heard trumpet players going on about "double cup" mouthpieces, but assumed it was BS. Again, hard to imagine what the benefit is supposed to be.

[Chuck(G)]

Any thoughts about playing, at least parts of it, as pedals?

Is the pedal sound important to the piece?

If the exercises in my French tuba book (deals with the French teakettle exclusively) are any indication, you betcha. The range expected on the exercises for this book that starts with a fingering chart would make many euphonium or F tuba players sit up and take notice. They resemble ophicleide studies more than tuba.

[djwesp]

Any thoughts about playing, at least parts of it, as pedals?

Is the pedal sound important to the piece?

If the exercises in my French tuba book (deals with the French teakettle exclusively) are any indication, you betcha. The range expected on the exercises for this book that starts with a fingering chart would make many euphonium or F tuba players sit up and take notice. They resemble ophicleide studies more than tuba.

I still warm up with that first exercise. IT is awesome. You should find out if you can republish it on your own. You have at least one buyer right here. It is great for my Bass horn.


As long as I'm thinking of the right French Tuba book that excerpts were posted on here from

[Chuck(G)]

AFAIK, the book's already been republished. It ain't cheap, though:

http://www.pilesmusic.net/partituras/pr ... anguage/en

Has anyone played Watelle's "Grand Solo de Concert" for euphonium/tuba and band?

http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp ... 7180954662

You might also be able to borrow a copy from your favorite teacher. It seems to me that any teacher worth his salt would want the Watelle (or something like it it) in order to be familiar with French tuba technique.

[Chuck(G)]

So the guy playing tuba wasn't going up against dual bore tenor trombones, a .590 bass trombone with a Eb tuba mouthpiece either.

Sigh. Neither were the people playing strings or woodwinds.

[djwesp]

So the guy playing tuba wasn't going up against dual bore tenor trombones, a .590 bass trombone with a Eb tuba mouthpiece either.

Sigh. Neither were the people playing strings or woodwinds.

That was a very viola-ish comment.

[Rick Denney]

So the guy playing tuba wasn't going up against dual bore tenor trombones, a .590 bass trombone with a Eb tuba mouthpiece either.

Sigh. Neither were the people playing strings or woodwinds.

Well, they've had their power increases, too. A modern Fox 601 is designed to make a lot more noise than, say, a vintage (and unmodified) Heckel. And even the wire choir is using, well, wire, instead of gut as they would have over a 100 years ago.

Rick "everything's gotten louder" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Rick "everything's gotten louder" Denney

Et cui bono?

By demanding that our instruments be loud enough, we've severely restricted the possibilities for variation in tonal color. I like listening to "re-creation" recordings--there's something that's so wonderful hearing old peashooter trombones and lightweight horns.

My luthier friend talks about his violas being "cannons" in that they're very loud. How sad when that heads the list of attributes.

[MaryAnn]

So the guy playing tuba wasn't going up against dual bore tenor trombones, a .590 bass trombone with a Eb tuba mouthpiece either.

Sigh. Neither were the people playing strings or woodwinds.

Well, they've had their power increases, too. A modern Fox 601 is designed to make a lot more noise than, say, a vintage (and unmodified) Heckel. And even the wire choir is using, well, wire, instead of gut as they would have over a 100 years ago.

Rick "everything's gotten louder" Denney

Well, hmm, it's my impression that pro level string players have, in general, gone to synthetic strings. But not wire ones, which have a very harsh sound; you'll find school kids using wire strings, and bluegrass / country players, but not the classical players. A good set of synthetic strings gets almost the same tone quality as gut, costs amazingly less, and lasts amazingly longer. The E string on violins is the exception; it is commonly wire. I really don't know how many soloists use gut strings...but I know one cello soloist who uses synthetic and swears by them. They still go false, but last much longer before they do.
MA

[windshieldbug]

Rick "everything's gotten louder" Denney

Don't forget conductors! Where a mere baton-tip would suffice a couple of centuries ago now requires a patron-impressing floor to ceiling sweep along with a half-twist and a scowl.

Subtle is hadly thy middle name!

[windshieldbug]

. . . a patron-impressing floor to ceiling sweep along with a half-twist and a scowl . . .

And the gainer! Don't forget the gainer!

Hah! You look! (I don't... )

[MartyNeilan]

I couldn't fall asleep last night for a while, so I went through Pictures and counted the notes.

Anyone care?

Probably this guy:

[Casey Tucker]

im just chiming in. the larger mouthpiece, i was reading what you typed and i'm guessing you meant that the after the initial edge of the mpc cup it goes back inwards and then comes back and gradually to the throat. is the cup shallow or fairly deep? the trombone professor (ex-tuba player. selling an eefer if you're interested) has a mouthpiece like this and let me play on it. it's intended for lower register playing. the idea is that instead of your lips "flapping" and hitting the sides of the cup the dip lets your lips buzz even further therefore increasing the lower range. it was interesting but it wasn't my cup of tea. it's a pretty neat concept i think. just my $.02

[tbn.al]

a .590 bass trombone with a Eb tuba mouthpiece either.

RC

I resemble that remark!