Nirschl-Gemstone 4/4 BBb?

[AndyL]

Has anyone on the forum played a Nirschl-Gemstone 4/4 BBb tuba prototype, apparently based on a 4-valve, front-action York, with same 0.750 valveset?

I had the impression that a prototype, to be manufactured in India under Nirschl supervision, was currently under evaluation in the US.

I see no reference to the instrument on the Gemstone website:
http://gemstonemusical.com/wnirschl/index.html
but there was an illustration of the horn on a handout I received at a show.

Sounds like a potentially interesting alternative to the King 2341, with the larger "York-style" valves and bore.

[Alex C]

I've played the BBb Nirschl. The prototype is a very good horn, certainly on a par with the King 2341. I didn't measure the bore but this horn seemed like a close cousin to the Nirschl 4/4 CC that I play.

I was pleased with the intonation of the BBb and the sound was fat but... these horns are not in the US yet. Richard Barth is Gemstone's Brass Division director and will not put this horn in the marketplace until it's right.

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Yes, they will be produced in India but they've had Waler Nirschl and others (who can't be named) working at the factory for the past two years to get the quality up.

My S.O. liked the Nirschl student line euphonium so much that she bought it from the TMEA exhibit. Honestly, the difference in sound and performance between her Willson and the Nirschl is slight. If the tuba is anything like the euphonium, it's going to be scary. If the price point comes out right, it will be a big hit.

I would say that band directors and the general buying public will have to get past the "made in India" aspect but, frankly, very few school-level horns are being made in the US anymore. We are all going to have to get over things being "made in India" for the forseeable future.

I went to Northwestern with Richard Barth and am excited about what he's doing, but I don't work for Gemstone.

[Alex F]

Are there any pics out there? What's the bell diameter? Is it rotor or piston? Interesting developments.

[Alex C]

Looks just like the Nirschl 4/4 CC except it's two feet longer somewhere.

[Alex C]

Interesting, will there be a Gemstone CC?

How's this effort different from the (failed?) Besson / arrangement / attempt?

I doubt that Gemstone will stamp their name on a tuba. My bet is that they will import CC Nirschls from Germany and BBb Nirschls from India.

I spent quite a bit of time with Walter Nirschl and with Richard Barth at Midwest. I've known Richard for a long time and my association with Nirschl is a whole 'nother story.

This is all second hand information, so take it as you will. The Besson arrangement was a fiasco from the start. When Besson trained the Indian craftsmen, they brought them to the British factory and, in effect, told the Brits to "train your replacements." What would you do?

I would train them incorrectly; I'd use older procedures at best and augment that with poor instruction on the newer procedures . In short, I'd sabotage the venture. This would explain the poor craftsmanship in the Indian Bessons.

I was told that once Gemstone committed to this path, Walter (and others) took several trips of more than a month's duration to train the workers in India. Still the results were not up to the standards they set.

Appartently, it was grueling and trying on both the Westeners and the Indians but they were determined to get acceptable results. If the Nirschl euphoniums are an example of the end result, I believe they succeeded.

It would have been easy to use the old Besson parts and the old Besson training to bring in bad instruments. However, Walter would not put his name on something poorly made and Richard Barth wouldn't work for a company that imported lousy low brass, he's a man who truly respects his roots as a fine tubist.

I guess that sums up the difference between the Besson story and Gemstone.

[Bandmaster]

It has been well over a year since this posting. Is there any news on these tubas coming to market yet?

[Alex C]

The NIrschl euphoniums are making their way to the market. There was a satin silver Nirschl compensating euphonium from India at ITEC this summer, it was a surprisingly good instrument, in fact it was excellent. Word is that they will add a tuning slide kicker to it and then it will compete with the upper line euphoniums. All they need is an artist rep to carry the flag. It's a great horn.

The non-sompensating Nirschl euphonium is also very good but these horns will never get the "press" that the compensating instruments do. A school could replace all of their old Bessons with the non-compensating models and 99% of what they play would be improved - at half the price.

There is a three valve BBb beginner-level tuba that is either on the market or soon will be. The BBb four valve demo is a honey of a horn but is not yet being produced to my knowledge. That's the one I want to see.

Dick Barth, the Gemstone brass president, is pushing quality very hard at all of the Pacific Rim (whatever that is) facilities. I expect that anything they produce will be high quality work and a lot of bang for the buck.

[Alex C]

That is the horn and the prototype is a honey, comparable in size and output to the 1291. The prototype has been on the convention circuit at times.

[Mitch]

I had a chance to try this horn at MidWest last year. I was awestruck, perhaps because I wasn't expecting too much. But I add my $.02 to what others have said: I found it to be a solid, responsive horn with even timbre and pretty good intonation.

As of Dec., 2007, the intention was to have it on the market mid-2008. I corresponded with Mr. Barth at that time, only to find out that, "The J-700 tuba project has been regrettably delayed. We are hoping to introduce at some point in 2009."

Once it's out, if you're looking for an "affordable," i.e., still in four figures, BBb, it should be at least near, if not at, the top of your list to try.

[Alex C]

Keep in mind, the BBb is a design of Walter Nirschl copying his 4/4 CC tuba and is in the same league tonally. Delays.. what's the deal? I want one now!

[Mitch]

Here's the reply I received from Mr. Barth. It's partially the same as what's posted above, with some tasty additional info:

"Dear Mitch,
Thanks for the interest.
We anticipate the J-700 to be in production by the end of the first
quarter 2009. That means availability by second quarter.
(And yes, we are planning it in CC with both 4 and 5 valves.)
Keeping our fingers crossed.
Richard"

Hmmm...

[Mitch]

As of today, the projected street price for the BBb is "under $4,000."

How 'bout THEM apples.

Waiting for word, if available, on the CC, which will be available in both 4- and 5-valve configurations, as to price and expected roll-out date. No word on which retailer(s) will be carrying them. I would assume they're concentrating on being able to produce the horns before they're entirely focused on getting them out. All things in due time.

[Mitch]

Just received a reply.

As to whether there was a projected price point for the CC, the answer was, "Not yet."

[Lee Stofer]

Yes,
That is the Indian-made Nirschl prototype. It looks much like a mid-1930's York standard BBb in design, but I doubt that it will really play like one. It would be prohibitively expensive to build a true copy of the old York tubas. Yamaha has succeeded in building the 6/4 York, as I witnessed by playing one at ITEC this year (price tag, $30,600.00) The standard-size York BBb or CC would likely cost $20,000.00 to make one that really played like the original.

I have seen the brochure, and have seen the Indian-made euphonium and the 3-front-valve, BBb tuba in person. A Gemstone area representative visited my shop earlier this year, showed me their wares and tried to convince me to sign on as a Gemstone Musical Instruments dealer. I have nothing personal against India, or any other foreign manufacturer, but I'd rather support our own manufacturers, such as Kanstul Musical Instruments, who makes a tuba and euphonium that exceed the Indian-made standards. In fact, the Gemstone representative, after I showed him Kanstul's flagship euphonium, kept on remarking about how gorgeous the Kanstul euphonium was. And, the final kicker for me was that the agreement they wanted me to sign would have committed me to buying a minimum of about $40,000.00 of instruments a year from them, and it would be THEIR CHOICE which instruments they sent. So, I would have no choice if they sent me a ton of Gemeinhardt flutes and 3-valve BBb tubas that are mediocre clones of an old Conn design - sell them, or else. I have just a small shop, and am not prepared to enter an agreement like that. This is the sort of dilemma some companies find themselves in, which might explain a couple of things about what you see in the marketplace.

So, I'm supporting Blessing Musical Instruments, the only US company still making student-line instruments, owned by the grandson of the founder. Their quality seems to just get better all the time. And, I'm supporting Kanstul Musical Instruments, owned by the founder, a company that makes very fine intermediate and professional-line instruments.

[Alex C]

Yes,
That is the Indian-made Nirschl prototype. It looks much like a mid-1930's York standard BBb in design, but I doubt that it will really play like one.
.....

So, I'm supporting Blessing Musical Instruments, the only US company still making student-line instruments, owned by the grandson of the founder. Their quality seems to just get better all the time. And, I'm supporting Kanstul Musical Instruments, owned by the founder, a company that makes very fine intermediate and professional-line instruments.

I hope you get a chance to play the Nirschl 4/4 BBb prototype, I think it is now back on the convention circuit. It doesn't play like a York, it does play remarkably similarly to the Nirschl 4/4 CC though. That would be a real breakthrough and what I am hoping for. I don't think that Gemstone ever considered making a York copy, as you say, it's too expensive to copy all of the specialist aspects (design, brass, tube joining, solderin quality, etc.) of York.

I was not knocked out with the 3 valve beginner BBb tuba, but then it's supposed to be a beginner instrument and I'm not teaching beginners. I was impressed with the compensating euphonium they had. That was a sweet playing instrument and I would have loved to compare it with some of the more well known instruments at ITEC. There was not a quiet room to be had.

---

I wholeheartedly understand your supporting American made instruments.

After considering a new '94 Accord, I bought a '94 Taurus for the same reason. That was the last time I'll do that to support American made products.

I think the offer Gemstone made to you was puzzling, unless you were a large, full-service dealer. There should be something for the brass specialist dealer.

It is disturbing to see the craftsmen and women from the various instrument companies loose their jobs as companies shut down. NAFTA, and other acts of government, offer less-than no protection. Same type thing happened with Besson, who would have thought it could happen? I don't know the solution but change is inevitable.

Blessing makes very good instruments; for many years one of the first-call trumpets here in Dallas showed up in studios with a Blessing trumpet, every time. I haven't played or seen much Kanstul yet, waiting...

[Lee Stofer]

Alex,
You are right - there should be something for the brass specialist dealer, and Blessing, Kanstul and Rudolf Meinl are the three that offered me a distributorship without quotas, while Conn-Selmer and Gemstone only want to sell through large volume dealers. I made inquiries to become a Conn-Selmer dealer several years ago, and the minimum outlay was a requirement to purchase something like 200 instruments a year. All I wanted was the ability to buy a few tubas a year, detail them out and sell them to happy customers. But, that didn't fit into their corporate sales plan, so I only sell new Kanstul, Rudolf Meinl and Blessing instruments.