Flat keys warmer?

[MichaelDenney]

Keys of four or more flats sound warmer to me than other keys. Do others find this so, or is this an idiosyncrasy I should have kept to myself?

[tubatom91]

I think it depends on the skill of tuning your band has. Mine, all chords sound terrible except Bb Major (warm up chord).

[Kevin Hendrick]

... is this an idiosyncrasy I should have kept to myself?

Hardly -- it's an interesting observation, and one most likely shared by others in the TNFJ. It probably does have something to do with the tuning of your group(s).

[windshieldbug]

I submit that unless you're Alexander Scriabin and feel that keys have colors, any feeling for a key is highly influenced by "equal-tempered" tuning, and by the "stretch" tuning employed by keyboard professionals.

[Billy M.]

I think you're seeing it easier to be darker in some keys with more flats because of the intonation tendencies of band instruments.

Looking at instruments and fundamental pitches, if you put a piece in the key of Eb, you're putting saxes in C, trumpets and clarinets in F, low brass and flutes in Eb and it sounds dark because intonation is pretty stable for all the instruments.

Add another flat and you're now putting the saxes in F... etc. et al.

I think this works because of the intonation tendencies you're hearing.

As for a key that I prefer... I love Db, just gorgeous... no matter what anyone thinks.

[Rick Denney]

I submit that unless you're Alexander Scriabin and feel that keys have colors, any feeling for a key is highly influenced by "equal-tempered" tuning, and by the "stretch" tuning employed by keyboard professionals.

I agree.

Plus, I'm in a darker mood when I have to play too many sharps.

Rick "who feels all warm and fuzzy with a handful of flats" Denney

[Quicksilvertuba]

I'm dead serious about this. It is impossible for me to hear a piece in E major and not think green, or a piece in Ab major and not think yellow.

just interested to know how you see 12 tone music...or aleatoric music? 4'33"?

also, how do you know what key something is in if you're not familiar with the piece? Do you have perfect pitch?

[iiipopes]

You're in good company. Think about all of the "Pastorale" type symphonies, concert pieces, etc., you've played, and think about the relaxed nature of the trio of any good march: all adding at least one flat.

Of course, this is with instruments that do have intonation tendencies. I forget who did the experiments, but as posted above, tone color goes away with pure equal temperament tuning, as found on electronic instruments, due to the rigidity of the tuning and intonation.

[Chuck(G)]

So G-flat major (6 flats) sounds warmer than F-sharp major (6 sharps)?

Someone please explain that to me.

This may sound like heresy in this forum, but my idea of orchestral music and what sounds bright and nimble or dark and soulful relates to how it's played on a violin. I think it matters a whole lot less to the brass.

[Kevin Hendrick]

Of course, bands are always warmer, with all those clarinets to burn...

It'd be interesting to compare flammable mass between bands and orchestras (clarinets, oboes and bassoons vs. all those strings )!

[pulseczar]

I vote bassoons off first. The varnish will go up in flames like nothing and the soft maple shouldn't be hard to finish off.

Or maybe violins....

[iiipopes]

Indeed. The only real difference between a violin and a viola: the viola burns longer.

[TexTuba]

So I really know nothing, but I always did like pieces in Eb Major. There's just something about that note and subsequent key that moves me. Sorry for this TOTAL waste of internet space!

Ralph

[GC]

I don't hear a color/key relationship, but I get certain feelings from certain keys. Ab is majestic to me; E makes me think "cut the guitar amp down!"

Then again, there's synesthesia.

[Chuck(G)]

Okay, so consider that we've gone on a baroque kick and we lower our tuning to A4=415Hz. That piece that we've been playing in C major now sounds to a person with absolute pitch as if it's in C-flat major; i.e. lots (7) of flats.

Does it now sound red-hot, even if everyone's reading in the key of C?

Extend the argument to a piece in A major (pretty cold by this logic) now becomes smokin' hot if everyone retunes to A4=415?

How do things sound then, if we retune to A4=425? Warm or cold?

Boy, I don't get it.

[Allen]

Chuck(G) is starting to put his finger on it: None of this makes sense!

[\rant on]

Hardly anyone is giving any context for their assertions. Does absolute frequency (not named notes) have anything to do with it? How about temperaments? How about the different ways people play out of tune? How about someone with perfect pitch having memories of particular pieces that just happened to be in particular keys? How about atonal music?

At least one of my favorite TubeNet euphemisms got used: "intonation tendencies." This translates to "those @#$%^& don't play in tune!" Thus, if some brass instruments (players) "share intonation tendencies," that means they play out of tune in similar ways, which is supposed to be an advantage (although I don't see how this helps to match the "intonation tendencies" of the woodwinds, etc.).

Of course, some of the brightness one might associate with band pieces in a lot of sharps could be from all of the whining from players asked to play in keys they haven't practiced.

[\rant off]

Cheers,
Allen,
who thinks that anyone who wants to talk about key colors should first study temperaments

[iiipopes]

It's all because the fundamental background pitch of the universe is Bb.

[Chuck(G)]

...who thinks that anyone who wants to talk about key colors should first study temperaments

Funny you should mention that.

This past week, I dug out some of my old LPs of brass ensembles playing Renaissance works. I wanted to see how brass ensemble sound has changed in the last 40 or so years. The quintet was just coming in for rehearsal and one of the guys commented that it would be better if the VSO players on the LP could learn to play in tune.

I told him that the "out of tune" trumpets that he was hearing were playing pure (not tempered) thirds and that was truly remarkable for a brass player.

I wonder how many of us could play with just intonation.

[iiipopes]

After more than three decades playing guitars, keyboards, and other equally tempered instruments as well as brass, I must confess that it is difficult for me to adjust to pure thirds when listening to something as such. They start sounding flat and dull to me, instead of the zing that a sharp major third adds to brighten a chord.

[John Caves]

Hey, Doc!

Tell me, isn't there anything better than a good "sh*t-house" modulation from Ab to Db on the last time through in a good Dutchman waltz?