Sign of the times?

ZNC Dandy · Post by **ZNC Dandy** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:30 pm

Ok, I get it. I just don't understand whats wrong with funding orchestras with tax money? We fund a bunch of ludicrous **** with it now anyway. Why not put that money to good use. We sure aren't now.

lgb&dtuba · Post by **lgb&dtuba** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:37 pm

ZNC Dandy wrote:Ok, I get it. I just don't understand whats wrong with funding orchestras with tax money? We fund a bunch of ludicrous **** with it now anyway. Why not put that money to good use. We sure aren't now.

Instead of funding orchestras with tax money how about we quit funding all that other ludicous **** as well?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:52 pm

I think the trend is now firmly established and no change in funding is going to make much of a ripple. Heck, I know of a few new band directors who don't have the slightest desire to attend orchestra concerts--even if you gave them the tickets.

I'll posit that in today's world, orchestra has largely lost its relevance in the music scene.

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Thu May 31, 2007 4:15 pm

lgb&dtuba wrote: Instead of funding orchestras with tax money how about we quit funding all that other ludicous **** as well?

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ZNC Dandy · Post by **ZNC Dandy** » Thu May 31, 2007 4:30 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:I think the trend is now firmly established and no change in funding is going to make much of a ripple. Heck, I know of a few new band directors who don't have the slightest desire to attend orchestra concerts--even if you gave them the tickets.

I'll posit that in today's world, orchestra has largely lost its relevance in the music scene.

How do people get out of school that way? Seriously?

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu May 31, 2007 4:39 pm

ZNC Dandy wrote:How do people get out of school that way? Seriously?

I'm not qualified to give an authoritative answer, but if I had to guess, I'd say that much of Music Ed coursework has very little to do with music.

ZNC Dandy · Post by **ZNC Dandy** » Thu May 31, 2007 5:29 pm

Its really sick isn't it. I would agree with bloke, it has very little to do with music. My girlfriend has just finished her student teaching, and will be graduating with a Music Education degree. She says the same thing. They aren't required to listen, or attend concerts outside of the department. Which is absolutely ludicrous. They have so many education courses crammed down their throats that its pretty much impossible to get done in 4 years, or even to spend time focusing on your core subject. We are in Ohio, and its apparently one of the worst states for this. The schools teach to the damn PRAXIS test that they have to pass to get their certification. Once they get a teaching job, their classes are taken away constantly because music "isn't important". This is a big reason why the educational system is going downhill at a lightning pace. Its amazing how much right brained critical thinking is ignored, and even perhaps supressed in this society. Sorry for the rant. Just really impassioned about this.

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Thu May 31, 2007 5:50 pm

ZNC Dandy wrote:Just really impassioned about this.

I've gotten over being impassioned, that worked for the first 60 years or so. I now switch back and forth between sick to my stomach and full of pity. I feel just like the dinasours waiting for the meteor. The young ones are the answer. My grandaughter sits on the floor beside me and plays along with her flute-a-phone. There's the hope.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu May 31, 2007 6:30 pm

ZNC Dandy wrote:Ok, I get it. I just don't understand whats wrong with funding orchestras with tax money? We fund a bunch of ludicrous **** with it now anyway. Why not put that money to good use. We sure aren't now.

Back when I was actively losing lots of weight, I was caught eating some Mexican food. It was noted that I was drinking a Diet Coke with my meal. The question was asked, "How can you pretend that it's useful to drink a diet soda while eating Mexican Food?"

Of course, the only thing worse for a person who is counting calories than Mexican food is to top off that Mexican food with another few hundred calories of sugar.

Thus, I reject the argument that we should waste money in one way just because we waste money in other ways. Adding more waste is still adding more waste, even if it's the waste that happens to appeal to us.

People get the government they deserve.

Rick "wondering why there are still so many immigrants coming to America from all over the world" Denney

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu May 31, 2007 6:42 pm

ZNC Dandy wrote:...The schools teach to the damn PRAXIS test that they have to pass to get their certification...

Don't blame society just because they are finally demanding some accountability from teachers. We may debate the form of the accountability, but it's absolutely legitimate to demand it.

And don't blame the test for the fact that the reason the test is there is to counteract decades of Education Establishment BS. The Education Establishment has enforced all these education courses, which has resulted in so much training on how to teach that the teachers have no idea what to teach.

They did this to cement their position as the sole arbiters of teaching. Decades ago, it was possible for successful professional people to retire and take up teaching. They are now considered amateurs by the Education Establishment, and a threat to their livelihood. But I'll bet most of those retired successful professionals can pass the PRAXIS without mortal fear. When a professional physicist can teach a high-school physics class, or when a professional engineer can teach a high-school science class (or a writer teaching English, an artist teaching art, a musician teaching music, a mathemetician teaching math, and so on), without having to go back and take two years worth of "education" courses, then I'll retract my view. How can a teacher feel qualified when they've never actually had to learn the material they are teaching?

Rick "who has seen some of the questions on the PRAXIS test" Denney

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Thu May 31, 2007 7:20 pm

Rick Denney wrote:When a professional physicist can teach a high-school physics class, or when a professional engineer can teach a high-school science class (or a writer teaching English, an artist teaching art, a musician teaching music, a mathemetician teaching math, and so on), without having to go back and take two years worth of "education" courses, then I'll retract my view. How can a teacher feel qualified when they've never actually had to learn the material they are teaching?
Rick "who has seen some of the questions on the PRAXIS test" Denney

Actually, Rick, this is possible in Texas. It is called "alternative certification." There is no student teaching involved, however I have to admit I don't know what all the rules are. I don't believe it takes two years.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu May 31, 2007 9:24 pm

I'm just looking forward to day when society begins to demand accountability from parents...

There's that, too. But the Education Establishment seems to want to replace parents as much as parents want to be replaced. There's a cure for parents who raise monsters: Expel the monsters. Then the parents will have to deal with them (expensively, in most cases).

Tolerating monstrous children amounts to tolerating their negligent parents.

For a demonstration of the Education Establishment's commitment to act as parents, look at their reaction to home schooling.

Rick "not sure how we got here" Denney

LoyalTubist · Post by **LoyalTubist** » Thu May 31, 2007 9:54 pm

Joe is right. Music Education these days has more to do with what the band does on a field than how students understand music. I probably do more to teach my students music now that I am an ESL resource teacher (in Vietnam) than I ever did as a band director!