Just being patriotic

[Sam Gnagey]

Why do the US military bands' tuba and euphonium sections consist largely of instruments from abroad? A National Guard band is in town for concerts this week with a section of Swiss and Czech equipment that made me wonder about this. Seems to me that some bands, their musicians and the industry would be better served by more manageable Kings or Conns in their back rows.
I didn't find an answer to my question in the archives, and I don't really have a dog in this race.
Sam

[Alex C]

It would seem to me that either 1) the Swiss and Czech instruments are more competative in bids or 2) the specifications are written so that bids on specific instruments can be submitted.

I think all of the DC bands write specs to include only specific instruments.

There could also be something about the bidding process. Who can tell?

I used to worry about buying foriegn vs. "American" made. I gave up worrying and started practicing a few minutes more each day. Everything is multi-naitonal now. (Where are IBM products made? Same place as everybody else's products.) There are exceptions but it's not the rule.

Oh, yeah. The Chinese products aren't multi-national yet but give it ten years. I no longer understand economics on any scale.

[Sam Gnagey]

I imagine that specs would do a lot to limit the field of bidding. By giving just the right numbers you'd winnow it down to one or two horns that qualify. It all boils down to someone's personal preference and his influence in the process of determining those specifications.

Consider what great emissaries for America these bands (DC, Field, base or Guard) become wherever they appear.
Think: "product placement".

[windshieldbug]

Think: "product placement".

Apparently that's exactly what the Bach management was thinking, but the placement was from Elkhart to overseas...

[Rick Denney]

Why do the US military bands' tuba and euphonium sections consist largely of instruments from abroad? A National Guard band is in town for concerts this week with a section of Swiss and Czech equipment that made me wonder about this. Seems to me that some bands, their musicians and the industry would be better served by more manageable Kings or Conns in their back rows.
I didn't find an answer to my question in the archives, and I don't really have a dog in this race.
Sam

The natural result of a "buy local" policy, which was usually put in place to appease labor interests, is to make those same labor interests and their companies complacent. Let them compete on quality and price.

You'll remember the revolutionary effect of first bringing Besson euphoniums into the Marine Band, after decades of playing Conns.

I'm thinking you saw Swiss instruments because the performers who had input to the spec at the time preferred Willsons or Hirsbrunners, and you saw Czech instruments because at the time they could get more for their budget.

The local guard band in this area has King 2341's, new style. That was the instrument that could compete on quality and/or price at the time.

Rick "who can't think of a current American-made euphonium that can compete with a Willson (or just about anything else) on quality" Denney

[Rick Denney]

- No *large bore concert tubas are manufactured in the U.S.

Yup.

I wonder if people in, say, New Zealand are concerned that their military bands don't play instruments made in New Zealand. New Zealanders are as well-educated and clever as we are, it seems to me. They could make them if they wanted to. I'll bet they are thinking that they don't NEED to make musical instruments if someone else will do it more cheaply, or even if someone else really wants to.

Decades ago, the Soviet Union only allowed their citizens to obtain things made in the Soviet Union (or in a few select satellites). They refused to use anything made anywhere else. Their photographers suffered with Pentacon and Kiev cameras that were not fit for daily use, but rather bits of junque that are fun for weirdos like me to play with. They drooled at the thought of owning even a consumer-grade western camera. I don't see any Zil dealerships outside of the Second World (I'm sure Chuck will be able to find one, however).

The U.S. stopped making cameras a long time ago. The reason is because a Nikon F was able to bash a VC in the side of the head and keep working, while fiddling with a Speed Graphic could get a guy killed, even if the tropical rain hadn't already dissolved it. Does anybody wonder what we are saying to the world when we see American news and sports photographers now holding Nikons and Canons? Of course not.

Unlike the Soviet Union, we are (usually) smart enough to make only what we can make and sell for a profit. In my view, that's a good thing. We still know how to make the things really important for us to make ourselves, because for those things we are willing to pay a price high enough to cover our high costs.

Rick "who buys American-made stuff when it's competitive in quality or price" Denney

[tofu]

-

[Sam Gnagey]

Like the US auto industry, the American instrument manufacturers didn't see the need to place themselves in competition when the Besson euph revolution happened. We've yet to see an American produced compensating euph go into serious production. After bucking that trend for about 50 years all we have to show for it is a King/Conn euph without compensation. Maybe Kanstul has something going?

When the rush to 6/4 horns started in the 80s Holton wouldn't bring the 345 back which, with some careful attention to manufacturing standards, could have been a contender. I believe that Conn could have reworked the 20j model into a competitor for the huge Willsons, Hirschbrunners, PTs, VMIs and Mirafones, but the Holton 345 would seem to have been nearly a slam dunk for them.

Its a real indictment against the people who ran those companies for not being responsive to market pressure.

At least we have King and Conn producing 52/56js and 2341s that seem to be catching on. I'm pleased to hear that a guard band made the choice to go with 2341s.

Bloke,
When those new model 2341s start popping up on ebay my participation in using them in resurrection projects will only be available through the services of a medium.

[Chuck(G)]

- Euphonium players seem to believe that they "need" compensating euphoniums...and none of those are manufactured in the U.S.

[circusboy]

oh...so...Some of you count "California" as "U.S."...OK...then...

. . . as the map below clearly illustrates:

[Cameron Gates]

- No *large bore concert tubas are manufactured in the U.S.

Could not have said it better if I tried.

One thing that needs to be mentioned here is the fact that we military musicians are continually being evaluated on our performance. One does not win the gig and sleep on the job for 20+ years. IMO there is no american tuba that I can put a bass sound on a final FF band chord without sounding like a cimbasso. If the redneck in me won over and I tried a BBb king or something along those lines, my career just might be in jeopardy. A section of them? Wow. Though it would be fun to try. Bell front would be the way to go for maximum podium agitation.

As for the government owned instruments, I say it is the only way to go. I would really think twice about taking MY instrument on a 7-week tour. Some of the places we play can be a little tough on horns (Arlington, Jan 20 every 4 years, ground zero ceremonies).

I can't imagine buying my own sousphone. IMO sousaphones should only be purchased by institutions and specialists. Dixieland and fightsongs.

[ai698]

Here's the Army's policy on purchasing instruments, from FM 12-50 U.S. ARMY BANDS

Chapter 6
Band Supply
To perform their musical mission, bands will be furnished professional quality
musical instruments, equipment, supplies, repair parts, and current musical
arrangements. These are non-standard supply items. They are procured from
commercial vendors through procurement channels and procedures utilizing Federal
Supply System Schedules/Contracts as a basis. The band commander must ensure
quality control by including sufficient technical specifications. The band commander
will approve substitutions before procurement contracts are established and inspect to
certify that all new musical equipment meets professional standards before
acceptance by the command. The band commander is solely responsible for
determining the professional quality of the band’s musical instruments. The band
commander will establish on-hand levels of expendable supplies and repair parts
large enough to ensure that the band can function for at least 90 days without
resupply. The band commander will also authorize ordering new sheet music
regularly to keep the band current with the changing musical tastes of soldiers and
other audiences.

[jonesbrass]

Can I assume from the above discussion that the military bands supply not only tubas, but euphs as well? Besides percussion are any of the other players supplied with instruments or do they play their own?

Don't most of the folks who audition for these top groups have their own large tubas already? Is it really necessary to have matched horns or is it more of an aesthetics issue? Outside of the CSO Yorks - don't most professional orchestral tuba players play their own horns?

Yes, the military bands supply instruments. ALL the instruments. Having said that, I have to say that most of the players also own personal horns, not all but almost all. In my experience, the commanders are far more concerned with your ability to show up on time in the right uniform and play well. they don't really care if your section's instruments match. One big difference between the orchestra guys and the military band guys is the fact that the military bandsmen often have to play in "exotic" locations, like, say, Iraq, or lord knows where in who knows what kind of weather/environmental conditions. THANK GOD for those Army-owned Miraphone 186's!!!

[Dan Schultz]

It used to really irritate me to see all of the foreign goods on the American market. It doesn't bother me much anymore since I came to realize that most all of the products that bear those good old American names are actually rebadged Asian goods. Manufacturing only nets about a 10% profit while the guys who actually sell the goods get a much higher percentage. A sporting goods 'manufacturer' here in town has been repackaging Chinese tennis balls as Willson and Spaulding for years. The grand old name of 'Olds' is back but ALL of it's products are being made elsewhere while the corporate offices are in New Jersey.

[LoyalTubist]

One of the most "American" brands I can think of is Yamaha!

[Rick F]

I think Kantsul makes a comper in the "accepted" 3+1 format. I'd be happy with 4 front valve non-comp with a usable 4th slide.

The Air Force Band is now using the Kanstul euph.

Will Jones (section leader) told me they're pretty good... but having to deal with some intonation issues.

The Kanstul bore is only .571 rather than the usual .580 or .590 for compensators.

[Chuck(G)]

Perhaps there's just not enough profit in large brass, given the shrinking domestic market. There are plenty of trumpet makers in the USA (Yes Joe, even in California). There are a few good horn makers also.

[Leland]

It used to really irritate me to see all of the foreign goods on the American market.

Besides the reasons you gave, it doesn't bother me so much anymore because I think it's the true nature of a capitalist society to buy the best products at the best prices regardless of their origin. If an American company wants to start making cameras to compete with Nikon and Canon, they're welcome to do so.

I drive a Honda Civic, a Japanese car built in England; I also ride a Cannondale bike that uses a frame built in Pennsylvania.

I'd even say that "imported goods" were invented when humans first traveled.

[Chuck(G)]

Besides the reasons you gave, it doesn't bother me so much anymore because I think it's the true nature of a capitalist society to buy the best products at the best prices regardless of their origin. If an American company wants to start making cameras to compete with Nikon and Canon, they're welcome to do so.

The way the American financial markets have been structured in the last decade or two simply doesn't make it attractive to set up a manufacturing operation whose ROI is going to be many years in coming. Nowadays the big money-makers are the derivative speculators, not actually starting an operation, but merely passing things around, or betting on the way the market will go, without actually having to produce so much as a safety pin.

I think that's why the current domestic brass instrument makers are either boutique operations (<100 employees on the factory floor) or dinosaurs looking to offshore what's left of their current production.

Chuck "Just bought a jacket made in Canada today"(G)

[Sam Gnagey]

I don't mean to deplore the global economy. I believe that individuals have every right in the world to buy any commodity from any point of origin. And we certainly want our military equiped with the best of anything our tax dollars can provide. Unfortunately that doesn't always happen. (My stepson will go into combat again in several months wearing less than the best body armor available).
I ask hypothetically: "What would have happened if the military bands had gone to the American instrument makers about 25 years ago and asked them to produce instruments to their specifications?" Maybe seeing the potential for orders of a few hundred 6/4 tubas and compensating euphs would have gotten their attention.......maybe not.
Doesn't Kanstul make a 6/4 tuba also?