The Dreaded Low C

[MartyNeilan]

i love that excercise for myself........but isn't it the most annoying thing to listen to SOMEONE ELSE play?????

Nope, that would be l-o-n-g t-o-n-e-s

[pierso20]

[quote=" [/i][/quote]
Nope, that would be l-o-n-g t-o-n-e-s
[/quote]

nope.....long tones are before rehersal....

[Steve Inman]

With rotary F's, I've tried misc. exercises that bounce back/forth from the trouble note(s) to other "musically significant" notes. If I had to use such a horn for a concert band setting, for example (my "worst case scenario") I might find myself playing F,C,F,C,..... in some sort of march context -- miserable (probably not too many marches in F, but whatever). So whenever I try out a new F, I try F,C,F,C ... with fast air flow, slow air flow -- I experiment with different approaches, different mouthpieces etc. I predict it will NEVER FEEL great, but your goal should be to be able to get a decent tone and to be able to consistently reproduce the low D, Db, C, etc.

The Firebird and the new JBL Classic F (thanks for the test-drive, Roger Lewis) both have (IMO) a very similar low C. The best rotary F low C I've ever played. The FIRST TIME I played a Firebird, I thought it was about perfect. Now that I've tried again a year later, I'd say 80% as secure as a low C on my Yamaha Eb, my CC, etc. Not "perfect". But it's "twice as easy, secure, etc." as any other rotary F I've ever played. It's good enough that you don't really have to invest any significant time to focus on this issue -- just relax your airstream a little and it will come -- and then make music. Based on price (and my limited abilities) I'd go for the Miraphone Firebird, were I to go back to F from Eb. It's the only rotary F I would ever consider --- UNLESS I purchased an F for higher register playing exclusively (as Mike suggested above). In which case, I should have kept my old Amati/Cerveny 654-6, which had a very nice "voice".

If your PT-16 plays like the one I've sampled, you may find that a Firebird will cause you to think you've died and gone to rotary F tuba heaven. But it's not as big of a horn, so there is a potential issue there. If you want bigger, the JBL Classic is closer to the PT-1x rotary F's in size -- and probably in price, if you can find one. They're quite new and perhaps not being "officially" imported to the US. Roger Lewis can provide more information, perhaps.

NORWEGIAN STAR -- SIMILAR QUESTION:

Anyone here play the 283 Eb? How is the low BBb note on this tuba? Same "feel" as the Firebird, or even more solid?

Curious,

[MikeMason]

To me,the JBL only has a marginally better c than any other B&S f.But is magnificent in the construction,playability, and sound quality areas.The firebird is supremely playable,but doesn't quite have the "magic"of a B&S in the sound quality area.Before I bought a firebird,i would want to try a gronitz piston f,which reportedly has the low register and the sound.If i even get caught thinking about another new tuba,I'll be on the couch or maybe visiting the lawyer

[Steve Inman]

. . . gronitz piston f,which reportedly has the low register and the sound.

So you are saying it plays like the Yamaha 621 but has a good sound? Like a rotary sound?

Could it be??? (collective pause in the TubeNet continuum ... nobody breathed ... somewhere in the distance, a dog barked ... )

[jonesbrass]

Lots of good advice here. I have to say, from my own experience (FWIW . . . probably not much), you shouldn't have to work so hard to get the low range on a decent F. Part of the real key is having the right horn for you. The other part is how you approach the horn. You have to REALLY hear the note before you play it, and then you have to "release" the note, instead of forcing it. On rotary F's, the harder you try to force the note out, the more the horn will resist you. Another thing that tends to work against players is the tonal concept you have for that range. It might take a little time to settle into how the horn sounds in the register from pedal F to low F. Probaby doesn't sound or respond like a CC or BBb tuba, and never will.

[cjk]

...
If your PT-16 plays like the one I've sampled, you may find that a Firebird will cause you to think you've died and gone to rotary F tuba heaven. But it's not as big of a horn, so there is a potential issue there. If you want bigger, the JBL Classic is closer to the PT-1x rotary F's in size -- and probably in price, if you can find one. They're quite new and perhaps not being "officially" imported to the US. Roger Lewis can provide more information, perhaps.

NORWEGIAN STAR -- SIMILAR QUESTION:

Anyone here play the 283 Eb? How is the low BBb note on this tuba? Same "feel" as the Firebird, or even more solid?

Curious,

Yeah, I've played one. Neither the Norwegian Star nor the Starlight have any low Bb problems. They both are also very in tune.

[MikeMason]

You seem to like it even better than your 1291 BBb.Most 4th gigs i've had were contrabass gigs.As far as my comments on the gronitz,my main source of info on this(since they aren't sold at a shop where a tuba expert posts here)is Jobey Wilson.He switched to one after his Symphonie was crushed.I polled him a bit back then and he said it was a dream in low register and sound quality.If he's lurking,maybe an update now that some time has passed...

[Steve Inman]

Yo Doc,

When I said "smaller", I rather meant when comparing with something like a Symphonie, or one of the other 16.5" bell-ed F's. The Symphonie has a pretty powerful sound -- a very nice sound. I'm glad to hear the 281 doesn't perform like a 14" bell-ed Cerveny!

Yo other posters -- thanks!

I'm intrigued by the new Miraphone Eb's, based on these postings. Maybe I need a BIG Eb and a small Eb, to get my "German Rotary Bass tuba" jollies -- with a super solid mid-low range.

Hmmm ... 2141 + Star Lite ..... hmmmm .... ($$$$$)

Cheers,

[ThomasP]

Buzz in that range with a drone or pitch reference. I believe someone else already mentioned that, I'm just reinforcing what they said. Also do it with your F tuba mouthpiece, and CC mouthpiece too if you want.

[sloan]

(double octive high G through BBb are killers. but i've pulled it off a few times. most of the time the high Bb sounds like a cross between a Bb and an B natural though and it sounds like a dieing cat lol).

You'd fit right in in out trumpet section. That's how they sound, too.

[JHardisk]

Something that hasn't been mentioned but is the absolute cure to troubles with low ends of rotary F tubas... SLOW air. High volume, at a slow rate of pressure behind it. Think OOOOH with your oral cavity and feel like you're sighing. Open your jaw as wide as your chops will allow and exhale slowly. Your buzz needs to be quite efficient.

It bugs me when people complain about "no low register on rotary F's". Unless the horn is a real dog, the notes below the staff should not be a problem. Try playing it like an F tuba and not expect it to be the same as your CC tuba. They are different animals. This is especially true if you play a piston CC tuba.

I love the sound of "german" rotary F's. Think Michael Lind... Walter Hilgers... Any of the Melton tuba quartet guys.... insert your favorite rotary F player here... If they don't have trouble with the "dreaded low C", you shouldn't. Don't make excuses about the tuba not having a low end, and hit the practice room to figure out why your chops aren't sounding a good low C.

What people don't realize is often their problems are NOT with the equipment and are not solved by the newest gadgets and widgets available. They are often weaknesses overlooked in lieu of a quick fix/magic cure all product. Good old practice time can't be bested by any technology and reaps the best rewards.

Forgive me for the rant.. I should be practicing, myself. Cd's don't record themselves!

Best of luck!

[MikeMason]

Of course there's no real arguing with you on this-you're right.The majority of us on this board do not make the majority of our income playing the tuba.I have a 50hr per week day job that keeps me on the road alot.I also play around 80 or so services per year of paid tuba stuff.Point being,my practice time is limited.I often have to grab and go.I also really like the rotory f sound.I have a great sounding one that I really don't want to play the low c on in public.So, if there's a horn out there that can retain that sound and give me the more attainable low register,why not?It does exist and its the Firebird.I don't need or want it bad enough yet to buy one,but it does exist.Those of you who are full time students or have plenty of practice time should probably do what John says.

[jonesbrass]

Something that hasn't been mentioned but is the absolute cure to troubles with low ends of rotary F tubas... SLOW air. High volume, at a slow rate of pressure behind it. Think OOOOH with your oral cavity and feel like you're sighing. Open your jaw as wide as your chops will allow and exhale slowly. Your buzz needs to be quite efficient.

It bugs me when people complain about "no low register on rotary F's". Unless the horn is a real dog, the notes below the staff should not be a problem. Try playing it like an F tuba and not expect it to be the same as your CC tuba. They are different animals. This is especially true if you play a piston CC tuba.

I love the sound of "german" rotary F's. Think Michael Lind... Walter Hilgers... Any of the Melton tuba quartet guys.... insert your favorite rotary F player here... If they don't have trouble with the "dreaded low C", you shouldn't. Don't make excuses about the tuba not having a low end, and hit the practice room to figure out why your chops aren't sounding a good low C.

What people don't realize is often their problems are NOT with the equipment and are not solved by the newest gadgets and widgets available. They are often weaknesses overlooked in lieu of a quick fix/magic cure all product. Good old practice time can't be bested by any technology and reaps the best rewards.

Lots of good advice here. I have to say, from my own experience (FWIW . . . probably not much), you shouldn't have to work so hard to get the low range on a decent F. Part of the real key is having the right horn for you. The other part is how you approach the horn. You have to REALLY hear the note before you play it, and then you have to "release" the note, instead of forcing it. On rotary F's, the harder you try to force the note out, the more the horn will resist you. Another thing that tends to work against players is the tonal concept you have for that range. It might take a little time to settle into how the horn sounds in the register from pedal F to low F. Probaby doesn't sound or respond like a CC or BBb tuba, and never will.

JHardisk, I think you and I are saying the same thing. Part of the problem is that I think a lot of players expect their F to act, sound, and respond like their primary instrument, the contrabass tuba. The Germans/Europeans spend most of their time on the F and don't have that problem. You can't force the low range (high pressure air) you have to "release" the notes (hear the tone & use low pressure with lots or relaxed volume).

[Steve Inman]

I have never played ANY Eb that didn't have a low Bb ("same" note) that wasn't good or better.

heh heh .... I have .....

http://www.amati.cz/english/production/ ... _Tubas.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l0xYc8zXvw

Cheers,

Steve "CEB-641" Inman
YEB-381 Eb, Conn 56J CC
Kokomo Chamber Brass
www.highlandpc.com

[Steve Inman]

Something that hasn't been mentioned but is the absolute cure to troubles with low ends of rotary F tubas... SLOW air. High volume, at a slow rate of pressure behind it. Think OOOOH with your oral cavity and feel like you're sighing. Open your jaw as wide as your chops will allow and exhale slowly. Your buzz needs to be quite efficient.

It bugs me when people complain about "no low register on rotary F's". Unless the horn is a real dog, the notes below the staff should not be a problem. Try playing it like an F tuba and not expect it to be the same as your CC tuba. They are different animals. This is especially true if you play a piston CC tuba.

I love the sound of "german" rotary F's. Think Michael Lind... Walter Hilgers... Any of the Melton tuba quartet guys.... insert your favorite rotary F player here... If they don't have trouble with the "dreaded low C", you shouldn't. Don't make excuses about the tuba not having a low end, and hit the practice room to figure out why your chops aren't sounding a good low C.

What people don't realize is often their problems are NOT with the equipment and are not solved by the newest gadgets and widgets available. They are often weaknesses overlooked in lieu of a quick fix/magic cure all product. Good old practice time can't be bested by any technology and reaps the best rewards.

Forgive me for the rant.. I should be practicing, myself. Cd's don't record themselves!

Best of luck!

I must respectfully offer a slightly different take. But first, I will agree that lots of skilled tubists are able to "figure out" the "low C quirk" of the F tuba, and are able to make great music with the horn. I personally LOVE the sound of the rotary F tuba!

The statement above that I struggle with is that the problems are NOT with the equipment. Yet the post starts by suggesting that the F tuba is NOT the same as any other tuba in this respect, that a different approach must be taken with this horn, and then concludes by stating that practice is the solution.

So actually, what John states here substantiates that there IS an issue with the equipment. BBb tubas don't have this problem, CC tubas don't, (most) Eb tubas don't, and the Yamaha F tubas don't. Euphs don't. etc. Most rotary F tubas DO have a weakness in this area. There IS an issue with the equipment. I can't explain WHY ... but the rotary F tuba is different. I've owned both a rotary F and a Yamaha 621F. The 621F was a breeze to play the low C and the rotary F was very difficult for me. If I have to adjust my technique for one type of tuba and only one type of tuba to MAYBE get the note to speak well, then this is my personal definition of "a problem with the equipment".

Now I completely agree with John -- it is obviously true that this can be compensated for with practice. It's also obvious to anyone who has tried the Firebird F that they have found a way to greatly minimize this quirk.

So your solutions are to either buy the Firebird and practice a little to pefect the low C, OR if your ear wants a different rotary F tuba, then you'll have to practice more to perfect the low C.

This has been discussed before, with anectdotal evidence of skilled professionals flubbing the low C on a rotary F tuba. So even with a lot of practice, there is still a risk of a problem in this area.

I truly love the sound of a rotary F tuba, but don't have the amount of practice time to spend to perfect the low C -- I'm in the same boat as Mike Mason -- 50 hour/week with a day job. I agree with Mike that the Firebird F would solve this problem for me. However, being a lazy tubist, if the Norwegian Star SOUNDS the same, and has an even better low BBb, then that's the way I'd choose to go.

Respectfully disagreeing with the definition of "problem",

[tubeast]

Back when I first got mine, I noticed I didn´t sound as I wanted down there. I practised quite a bit and fixed most of what I could notice.
Starting kids on old F-tubas in band, I came to think of the "lower than Eb"-issue with F-tubas again.
A self-test showed that all F-horns available to me at this time are EXTREMELY flexible pitch-wise. Example: Using "23" for Db, I can play anything between Cb and E with a "false-tone" quality to the sound, which may may seem OK to many people. Only a true Db will sound to my sound concept, though.

So upon getting to know an F-tuba´s low range, make sure you use a tuner a lot (at least at the beginning). Play F, E and Eb. These will speak nicely. Practise D and anything lower down to FF until the sound quality is THE SAME as it is above Eb.