Kane's Plastic Tuba Prototype

[tubajoe]

Please pardon my tardiness on this...

A few weeks ago, I was in California briefly and I had a chance to try one of Brian Kane’s plastic tuba prototypes... it’s a pretty remarkable horn! He came up from Santa Cruz to Walnut Creek to have me give it a try!

I expected it to play like a fiberglass sousa, but I must say that it was superior to that... I was instantly impressed on how it played -- much better than I expected for a horn that is made mostly of plastic!

There are a few kinks to still work out (overall pitch was a tad off) but they are nothing that cant be solved by some more prototyping and development. The whole range of the horn seemed good, and for the most part, it played like a normal tuba.

This particular horn is a York-style horn (right?), and is VERY light and easy to hold. Despite the obvious weight difference, it holds just like a normal tuba. The plastic seemed to vibrate well, and the design seems solid.

I am thinking that these horns definitely have a future!

They could be a worthwhile alternative for young players who cannot yet manage the weight of a standard tuba, or for school programs who simply cannot afford the quickly rising price of standard tubas.

Great job Brian! I look forward to seeing what comes next!


joe

[Casey Tucker]

i'd really like to play one of these. what horn is the innerworkings from? also, how is the durability? i'd just be afraid that the plastic would crack with a bad spill. does it "slot" easily or does it take a ton of effort to play? just wondering.

[Dan Schultz]

I think this concept is incredible! I spent many years in plastics, mold design, and factory automation... and thought I might make an attempt to develop a cheaper alternative to brass but never had the time. I would REALLY like to get my hands on one of these... or even just the large bows so I can add my own valve section.

[tubajoe]

I'm not sure what the inner workings are from, but I think it is fabricated from a couple horns.

It seemed pretty durable, not brittle.

The low range was really good and seemed to focus well and it was all pretty even throughout.

It slotted pretty well on most notes (although the pitch situation did affect a few) BUT this is no different than some other (brass) protoype tubas I've played. It played a lot like a CC cut from an old BBb. ...and I am sure with development, they will continue to get even better. Brian says he has a number of these, made from various plastics. It's a pretty remarkable project and right away far exceeded my expectations!

...and the look of it is striking!


I'll let Brian chime in further.

[davidgilbreath]

Speaking of plastic tubas, Rex Conner had a photo in his UK office of a young man holding a fiberglass tuba that I used to see everytime I had my tuba lesson. The photo was taken at Interlochen one summer while Rex was teaching there. Three things struck me about the photo, 1) it was a fiberglass tuba, 2) it was a fiberglass tuba and 3) it was a . . .

I know all of Rex's UK students saw it, but I forgot who the young man was and where this horn was made.

Have any 'Netters(sic) ever seen the photo or known the story behind the instrument?
How about you, bro. Abbott?

David Gilbreath

[Rick Denney]

Have any 'Netters(sic) ever seen the photo or known the story behind the instrument?

I don't know of this particular instrument, but I have only heard of two fiberglass upright tubas that were ever produced. (I'm excepting one-off prototypes, especially the later carbon-composites). Glassl made a series of rotary tubas with fiberglass outer branches, but much longer ago (circa early 60's), Martin made fiberglass tubas.

The Martin was similar in layout to typical American 4/4 front-action piston tubas of the short, fat persuasion. The Conn 56J or King 2341 come to mind, except that the valves are on the diagonal, ala the older Conns. It's a smallish 4/4 tuba with a 20" bell and three valves. It plays rather well, considering it was intended as a relatively cheap student instrument. Does that ring a bell with your recollection of that photograph?

I would definitely be interested in a 6/4-size instrument like what Brian is prototyping. I'd like something that's easier to schlep than the Holton for outdoor gigs.

Rick "thinking these have earned serious consideration" Denney

[davidgilbreath]

Rick,

Near as I can recall, the tuba seemed similar in size to a 10J, but the bell flare wasn't as pronounced. Two other bits of info about the picture, the young man had placed a narrow black tie just below the bell and it had a set of eyes and 'brows (and maybe a mouth) just above the tie.

It certainly could have been a one-off, but this was thirty-seven years ago and Rex had to correct so many things in my playing that it's a bit difficult to remember the non-corrective dialogues.

David

[Biggs]

I'm getting out my wallet now, Mr. Kane!

[Rick Denney]

Near as I can recall, the tuba seemed similar in size to a 10J, but the bell flare wasn't as pronounced.

Probably not the Martin, then. The Martin has a typical American wide bell flare. Maybe another manufacturer also had a fiberglass tuba that we have collectively lost touch with.

Rick "who finds the Martin quite playable except that it has NO false tones" Denney

[Rick Denney]

How are low F and E? Pedals?

The low F and E are fine if you make good use of that tuning stick. E in particular is a quarter-tone sharp because of the valve swindle, but that's typical of 3-valve instruments.

You're asking the wrong guy about the pedals. Someday when a good player evaluates it, I'll let you know.

Rick "who doesn't spend the time he should on the ultra low register" Denney

[Donn]

I can't help but picture goldfish in this thing and bubbles coming up while someone plays it.

You know someone's going to fill it with beer.

one thing I find troublesome are repairs. Sure its durable, but acciDENTS happen. This looks like quite a challenge to try to repair.

He says not - music teacher could do it with glue, in a well ventilated room.

The transparent ones are the coolest looking pictures I've seen, but for the long haul I would guess that opaque plastic will hold up better in terms of appearance, after routine abrasion, glue fixes, etc. Maybe the ideal compromise is translucent and/or lightly frosted.

From same post back in Feb: "My last plastic tuba trip was to Italy, and even though they dropped the case from six feet, nothing happened!"

[jeopardymaster]

I do remember a number of pictures in Rex's office, and an embellished fiberglass tuba is settling in among them. At this point in my life, it's getting harder for me to distinguish among actual experiences, movies, webtrivia, and the occasional disturbing dream. However, what comes to mind is that it was a DEG Commuter with a bell fashioned from a silver-sparkly composite. Upright bell, 3 top action valves. I also remember playing one once, and being offered a price for it in the low 3 figures. "No thanks," said I, without much hesitation. It played as if it had come from a novelty shop. What Tubajoe describes and depicts would be one looooong heave beyond that little toy.

[Rick Denney]

However, what comes to mind is that it was a DEG Commuter with a bell fashioned from a silver-sparkly composite. Upright bell, 3 top action valves.

I remember that instrument pictured in one of the books, now that you mention it. The idea was that the plastic bell would sit at home, and the brass bell at the school, and the student would only have to schlep the body back and forth.

The price you mentioned was twice what a Miraphone cost in the time frame being described, so I don't have any trouble at all understanding your reticence. I certainly paid far less for the Martin, and I suspect it's a far better instrument.

Rick "who still hasn't started the restoration" Denney

[GC]

Conn made a 2XJ fiberglass tuba for a short time. It was a real dog.

[MaryAnn]

I love the transparency! If it were made of Lexan...isn't that stuff about indestructible, like you can shoot a shotgun at it and it doesn't break? That sounds perfect for schools. And colored transparent plastic, like the Kelly mouthpieces, in school colors....just perfect.

Three of them in a parade, one each in red, white, and blue.

MA

[Lew]

I don't know of this particular instrument, but I have only heard of two fiberglass upright tubas that were ever produced. (I'm excepting one-off prototypes, especially the later carbon-composites). Glassl made a series of rotary tubas with fiberglass outer branches, but much longer ago (circa early 60's), Martin made fiberglass tubas.

The Martin was similar in layout to typical American 4/4 front-action piston tubas of the short, fat persuasion. The Conn 56J or King 2341 come to mind, except that the valves are on the diagonal, ala the older Conns. It's a smallish 4/4 tuba with a 20" bell and three valves. It plays rather well, considering it was intended as a relatively cheap student instrument. Does that ring a bell with your recollection of that photograph?

I would definitely be interested in a 6/4-size instrument like what Brian is prototyping. I'd like something that's easier to schlep than the Holton for outdoor gigs.

Rick "thinking these have earned serious consideration" Denney

I remember seeing what I think was a Reynolds fiberglass tuba in Dillon Music one time. I don't know if they were a regular factory item, but at least one was made.

[The Big Ben]

When Brian and I corresponded about these last month, he said it would cost about $30K to do the tooling to put these into production.

Are there 30 TubeNetters who are willing to put up $1k to get these into production? I'm assuming after the tooling, there would be more cost to make a tuba body and then the cost of the valve set. Eventually, if they went into real production and hundreds were sold, there could be a return on the original investment. Maybe the opportunity to buy a tuba body for $500 would be enough return to start with? Then, $500 for a valve set from "somewhere" (ebay, used, 'offshore', E. Europe) and then the tinkering to put it together? A BBb or CC tuba for $2K that plays and has a certain novelty factor?

Maybe build a market with colored clear plastic sousys for college marching bands? Maybe even just colored clear bells for college bands? Imagine a half time show with clear sousy bells in school colors...

Wonder if someone who knows about that sort of thing could do a business/market analysis on the feasibility of the whole proposition...

Jeff "Thinking while typing" Benedict

[Ben]

Hello all...

I just got back from CA earlier this week and have been trying to find some time to post about my encounter with Mr. Brian Kane's plastic tuba. I figured I would resurrect a very old thread and add to its discussion. I was able to sneak away from the wife and infant for a little play test.

First off: Pitch - very close to a C tuba now. Brian was able to rework a few things, changed the taper slightly and the horn plays a tad sharp overall, but it is a global issue, not terrible for a prototype that has an overtone series in-tune.

The horn sounds very much like a tuba. I had a great satisfaction playing it in a parking garage where I could harmonize with the horn's own echos. A few specific notes did not speak efficiently (3rd partial (1st valve) F spoke poorly for me, while the E a half step lower (1&2 or 3rd valve) played perfectly fine... for that matter the F's on the horn across the range I tested the horn all felt "dead" ). I do not fault a design issue for this shortcoming, as I could identify two major leaks in the horn, one at the brass plastic junction and one where some sealant had failed at a juncture in the bows. Despite these leaks, the horn played acceptably in tune, and had a very "american tuba" sound. A blind test would not have alerted me to the fact the horn was plastic.

I feel that the horn has GREAT potential if it were in perfect shape. Any doubts about plastic as a brass substitute for aural reasons in my mind have been dispelled. Mass production & quality control would dispel my worries about leaks, and proper ferule design would go a long way towards my durability fears. The joints of this horn were glued end to end with no recessed lip to increase bonding surface area. The sound and scale are there!

I want to thank Brian for taking the time to drive up from Santa Cruz to visit me where I was staying in San Jose at the time. It was great to meet and talk with him. I wish we would have had a little time to grab a beer, but the meeting was short as he was just passing through on the way to Sacramento.

Hope we meet again Brian!

[Ben]

Maybe it was the F#, why don't ya send me the horn and I'll make sure I got it right in the post I very well could be mis-remembering, regardless I believe it is a leak at a node.

Yes I forgot to mention that you had little difficulty playing the horn very well. It did sound great, you should definitely record that little bit and share!

[toobagrowl]

So Brian, when are you gonna put your plastic tuba into production?
I think it would be great to have a lightweight durable plastic tuba that sounds and plays well that is affordable & made here in the US. You just need the right contacts and marketing. The Brits already have the market on the p-bones, why cant we have the market on p-tubas? These would be great for schools and good for the local economy