List of various sousaphone models !

[Steve Inman]

I'm copying this post from another thread to be sure my humble request is seen by the TNFJ experts:

OK -- I got my start on a big, brass, sousaphone of some sort or another. But other than that one for my 7th grade year, and the white, plastic ones we played in HS marching band, I don't know one from the other.

SO: TNFJ Assignment -- would one of you sousy "experts" please post a LIST of the various brands and models of commonly (or uncommonly) available sousaphones, along with any significant characterists that each model has? Feel free to include helicons as well. I'd love to see a "general information FAQ-type" post!

Example:

Druid-a-phone Model #123 built from 670 AD to 700AD, 5" bell, available only in wood

Bag-pipe-o-phone Model 1, built in Scottland around 1350AD, plaid finish

etc.

This is probably worthy of a new thread, to make it easier to find when searching archives. Pick an easy-to-find title: Catalog of Sousaphones, Sousaphone Hall of Fame, List of well-known Sousaphone models ... etc.


Thanks!

[subject line edited to change the "?" at the end of the line to a "!"]

[iiipopes]

First, a disclaimer: this post does not mean to make any comment about such now-rare fine beasts such as a Martin Mammoth, or the pre-WWII Conn or King "Jumbos" or any of that ilk. Second, it does not make any comment about such other now getting to be rare ordinary souzys such as "real" Reynolds and Holton, before the former went out of business and the latter was assimilated by the cyborg. This post is about those souzys that you can fairly easily get and fairly easily get replacement parts, whether new from the factory or from the crash parts bins and wall hangers of shops who have steady school and/or college work nation wide. Third, I am discussing the "conventional" configuration of bell front, and not the (original) raincatchers or helicon configuration.

Now, the post: but for the above mentioned special cases, there are only two brands of real souzys: pre-cyborg King and pre-Macmillian Conn. Everything since then is thin metalled trash. For the Conn, of course, the usual culprits are the 14K and the 20K, and if you have to be so inclined, the occasional fiberglass counterpart. As we all know, King made one standard model of souzy, with a fiberglass alternative as well.

Add to that the pre-war Conn Cavalier, which, along with the Pan American, are direct ancestors of the 14K, and are basically identical. And then for pre-WWII Conns, there is in addition the 38K Grand and its variants, as set out on the Conn Loyalist chart.

There. That about covers is. What I have noticed is that there are differences in the Conn necks. The one original neck I have seen, the one from the Cavalier I used to play and that another guy in Shrine band now plays, has a longer top part, so you only use one bit, as opposed to the current style necks that use two bits (and a shave, and a haircut, and I just couldn't resist!).

My opinion on number of valves: Three. Period. Why carry the extra weight when you don't have to? I know, 4-valves were and are made, and some people make a big deal about scavinging a second valve casing and the tubing to make a 4th valve, when it's not necessary. The Conns and Kings listed have great "false" pedal tones. Because of this, all you need to do is make the top loop of the 1st valve tubing into a movable slide with the left hand and pull about 1/2 inch or so for 12 G & D, a little more than an inch depending on where you need to set your 3rd valve slide for 23 to be in tune so you can play 13 C and low F, and pull as you will for the occasional 123 B nat and low E nat. The false pedals will take care of themselves nicely with open low Eb, 2 D, 1 Db, etc. as your lips and instrument can do or as you will. I had several pieces on the weekend picnic/concert that the trio went to the key of Eb and I was able to, outdoors, give a good resounding low Eb to end the piece. Normally, I wouldn't play this low outdoors, but it was a neighborhood party, and we sat up in a large side yard facing a brick house, so I had a good reflector to give that low Eb back to me, and I went for it. The guys loved it.

If you're not actually on a football field of an NCAA Division I school that you're trying to please both aurally and visually between 50,000 and 100,000 people per show, I also prefer the 24 inch bell to the 26. It is more centered in tone, and it is MUCH more maneuverable, especially through doorways, parade floats (yes, I sit on the trailer to play instead of march now. I'm still in good enough physical condition to march, but I'm also a lazy fart.), and the like.

For overall ease of playing and intonation, as well as, again, availability of repair parts, and in spite of the longer stroke, I am a fan of conventional valves over the 20K short stroke valves. I play upper brass as well, rarely. If I want a short stroke, I'll play trumpet or cornet. I expect to have a longer throw. Think about it: if it were that great of a deal, wouldn't the tuba makers have adopted it now that the patent has long run out? No, everybody else sticks (figuratively only, hopefully) with conventional stroke valves.

Next, go to a home center, get about 7 feet of clear 5/16 or 3/8 inch clear plastic tubing, depending on your rim wire, and using either an Exacto knife or the little jig Sam Gnagny describes, make yourself a bell protector. It not only protects against minor dings, but it also damps the overring that can happen on souzy bells, without affecting the tone. It actually will clear up the tone and give more core and projection from damping the unwanted, and usually inharmonic, bell ring.

Consider getting, at least as a backup or for really extreme temperatures, a Kelly lexan mouthpiece. I play a Kelly 18 outdoors, and it is the finest mouthpiece for outdoors I have ever played. I haven't tried the Kellyburg, as the rim is a little larger in diameter, and the 18's 32.5mm or 1.28 inch rim is as large as I can securely get centered tone. They don't break; they are insensitive to temperature extremes; they don't dent either themselves or your souzy when you drop them. Anybody who claims never to have dropped a souzy mouthpiece is just full of it, or hasn't played enough to matter. They're cheap, and they come in school colors. I have two: a blue one for myself and a burgundy one that matches both the university community concert band I play in as well as Shrine band. You may need to wrap a piece of lead golfer's tape around the throat to keep it from "cracking" at high volume, depending on how you play.

Finally, after having the privilege of the shoulder flange at times, I wonder why I ever endured the pain of the bugle digging into my shoulder otherwise. Have one made and soldered on. Your shoulder will thank you for it, and even if you do use a Wenger chair, it will provide a flat support for the top brace and make it more stable in the chair.

I know this post is just short of being a tirade instead of a mere post, but there you have it. I am unashamed and unabashed. I love playing a souzy.

[Rick Denney]

SO: TNFJ Assignment -- would one of you sousy "experts" please post a LIST of the various brands and models of commonly (or uncommonly) available sousaphones, along with any significant characterists that each model has? Feel free to include helicons as well. I'd love to see a "general information FAQ-type" post!

I think what you are asking for is a research project rather than a FAQ-style post to Tubenet. Back in the day, everyone made a range of sousaphones.

Rob Pirelli-Minetti has posted in the past the numbering systems used for Conn sousaphones over the years. The list is daunting.

In the 1930's, Conn produced the 32K, 38K, and 48K. The 2xJ tubas had just been introduced, but the short action valve was not yet listed for the sousaphones. The 32K was the "lightweight" model, forerunner of the 14K. The 38K was the "souspahone grand" model, forerunner of the 20K. The 48K was the "jumbo" model, and as far as I know was the last of its breed.

The 14K gave way to the much-later 36K, and the 20K is still produced. There were many variations of the small, medium, and large instruments depending on production period and configuration. Klaus has a 40K that is probably like the 38K but with an extra valve.

Joe has likened the 32K/14K/36K to a 4/4 instrument, and the 38K/20K to a 6/4 instrument.

That's just the BBb sousaphones from one manufacturer. York also had a range of models, as did Martin, Holton, and H.N.White (and later King). Reynolds made one, and Olds. And each had their budget brands, too. Conn had Pan American, York had USA Line, King had Cleveland, and so on.

York lists their Model 790 in a 20's-era catalog (and it's Model 780 and 786 variations). If it's like other Yorks of that vintage, it probably has a smallish bore. The tuning slide follows the valves and the leadpipe goes straight into the first valve.

I'm not even mentioning sousaphones made elsehwere in the world. Besson has (or had) them, as does Miraphone, Jupiter, Yamaha, and probably several others. I've never met anyone who likes any of them as well as a classic American-made sousaphone.

The Conns had a larger bore than the Kings, and had a leadpipe straight into the first valve with the main tuning slide following the third valve. The Kings had tuning slides in front of the first valve. The Kings are probably an easier blow becuase of their greater resistance, but the Conns provide more bottom in the sound.

Going beyond those broad generalities would require some significant research and categorization. I would not be surprised if the list you seek had 100 or more entries. I wonder which grad student (or prof) will think that is a worthy dissertation!

Rick "noting the many pages of tuba manufacturers listed in Bevan's book" Denney

[Dave Hayami]

OK, From what I remember

CONN 14K/32K 24" bell, .735 bore, long stroke pistons,main tuning slide AFTER valve block also Pan American,and Coloniel(?) Fiberglass version 36K Bell collar 6 1/4"

CONN 20K 26" bell, .735 bore short stroke pistonsmain tuning slide AFTER valve block Fiberglass version 22K
Large bell collar 7 1/4" ( older 20K's had 24" bells)

CONN 38K 24" or 26" bell .735 bore lomg stroke pistons,main tuning slide AFTER valve block, but larger body of the 20K style

OLDS 090 26" bell, .679(?) bore long stroke pistons, upper first valve slide tunable on the fly, main tuning slide AFTER valve block Fiberglass version 096

REYNOLDS SU11( IMHO identical to OLDS, except brace flanges and top valve caps) Fiberglass version SU14

KING 2350 26" bell .679(?) bore long stroke pistons tuning slide BEFORE valve block fiberglass version 2360/2370 "Short Gooseneck"

KING 12xx 26"/24" bell .679 bore long stroke valves main tuning slide BEFORE valve block,Upper first valve slide tunable on the fly, different "Gooseneck"."Taller" then 2350, only has spit valve on tuning slide No "ring/ferulle" at bell flare(IF Orginal Bell)

Cleveland(HN WHITE) 9938(?) 24" or 26" bell .679? bore long stroke pistons, tuning slide AFTER valve block


My college section had a mix of the King 2350's and the older 12xx's. I played the older 12xx, with the first and the main tuning slides pulled you could get a real nice LOW Eb (123)

I have played all of these horns at some point in my career, and I have also owned one of each of them at one time or another.

I have a 4 valve version of the Cleveland HN White with a 22" bell, serial numbers match and date it to the early 1920's(Unknown Model #)

I also own a HN White "Giant/Jumbo" 29" bell .750 bore, tuning slide BEFORE valve block, serial number shows late 1920's(3 valve)(Unknown Model #)Body/Coil as large as a CONN 20K

I have yet to play any of the Yamaha/Holton, Jupiter, DEG/Dynesty, OLD HOLTON,OLD YORK, Martin,"chinese/imports" or Mirafone/Miraphone sousaphones.

I have played a 3/4 size YORK MASTER .750 bore small outer branches, 24" bell.(Unknown Model #)

I hope this is close to what you asked for, YMMY
Dave "Some call me Mr. Sousaphone" Hayami

[WakinAZ]

Great info, guys. It would be nice to get some stickies or some of this stuff put into articles. I found many of Bloke's posts on the various Conn models to be invaluable when I was looking for a sousa.

Eric "who misses his 32K" L.

[windshieldbug]

More Conns than you can shake a viola at

[Steve Inman]

OK, From what I remember

[long list of great sousy info snipped]

I hope this is close to what you asked for, YMMY
Dave "Some call me Mr. Sousaphone" Hayami

YES!! Exactly!!

And the other posts have all been very helpful as well -- whether in list format or narative. W.S.B.'s link to the Conn "table" (above) was also great.


Many thanks!

[Kenton]

I'm too lazy to actually make a list, but if you go to http://www.horn-u-copia.net/display.php ... saphone%22

you can see a pretty good listing of sousas.

kms

[iiipopes]

Is it just me, or was the word, "Popular," excised from this thread title?

[Steve Inman]

Is it just me, or was the word, "Popular," excised from this thread title?

It's just you!



The only change I made was to replace my question mark with an exclamation mark, after receiving numerous enlightening posts. (Honest! )

My original suggestion for the thread was not focused specifically on popular models:

...please post a LIST of the various brands and models of commonly (or uncommonly) available sousaphones...

With the help of the collective group of knowledgeable folks, I was hoping to educate myself and anyone else who found the thread.

Thanks to all who have contributed -- great information!

Cheers,

[iiipopes]

Is it just me, or was the word, "Popular," excised from this thread title?

It's just you!

Not the first time.

[Lew]

I have also owned Keefer Eb and BBb sousaphones, although Keefer did not make very many of any of their instruments.

[iiipopes]

OK, Lew -- begs the question since you didn't post it -- how do the Keefers play?

[tofu]

-

[Lew]

OK, Lew -- begs the question since you didn't post it -- how do the Keefers play?

The Keefer Ebs I have owned were mediocre players, although both of them could have used valve jobs. I had one that was an older one with a valve tubing wrap that looked exactly like the wrap on my Distin Eb helicon, and for that matter was almost identical to the wrap on an 1870s vintage "circular bombardon" (aka helicon) made by Boosey with the Distin and Co name. Here's a photo:



The other Eb had a more contemporary looking wrap, looking similar to a Conn 26K to me. It also was only a fair player.



The BBb was a different story. It was in pretty rough shape and I never got around to having it restored, but it actually played very well. It seemed to be in tune, was very free blowing and had a nice sound. Here is a photo of the BBb.



Jim self has a photo of a fully restored Keefer BBb on his website here: http://www.jimself.com/hardware.htm.

Jim's Keefer has the older style wrap, similar to what I was describing on my Eb's while my BBb had the newer style wrap. I am not aware of any model numbers for these.

[iiipopes]

More Conns than you can shake a viola at

You wouldn't happen to know for the period from 1919-1927 when this list you showed for Conn shows instruments as high or low pitch what frequency is high and what is low? Did this vary with manufacturer back then or was there some kind of agreed upon industry standard that the various manufacturers used?

High pitch was used mostly for military and brass bands, though not exclusively, and not all military and brass bands used high pitch. But high pitch was @ A=452, regardless who played it.

[windshieldbug]

More Conns than you can shake a viola at

You wouldn't happen to know for the period from 1919-1927 when this list you showed for Conn shows instruments as high or low pitch what frequency is high and what is low? Did this vary with manufacturer back then or was there some kind of agreed upon industry standard that the various manufacturers used?

I think initially it varied, espescially for smaller makers according to local custom. The Vienna International Congress standardized A at 435 in 1887. For Conn, some of the early Conn LP horns I have were built to A=435, but by 1919 I'm sure that LP was A=440, and the US HP was standardized at A=452 by then, too.