52J 5th valve removal trial

[Bill Troiano]

There has been talk on the board regarding the 5th valve on the 5XJ series being an afterthought and that the 5XJ horns are really designed as 4 valve horns. I've been comtemplating removing mine after seeing that others have done so. But, I didn't want to invest in the conversion without trying my own experiment first. I went to Home Depot and purchased clear 3/4 in. plastic tubing. I brought the main slide with me. It only came in 10 ft. rolls, but after telling the salesman what I was doing, he just cut off a 12 in. piece from the roll and charged me per. ft. It came to around $1.00. Those of you familiar with the 5XJ horns know that the 5th valve assembly is easily removed. I cut a 6 in. piece of tubing from the 12 in. piece. I needed a hair dryer to heat it up to get it over the screw fitting on the main tube where the 5th valve assembly screws onto the main section. That was it.

Immediately, I felt that the horn blew more freely, with less air restriction. Also, the sound seems for focused and clear. I've only used it once in a concert band setting. I felt like I could play louder too (1812 Ov.) Tonight, I'll use it in a jazz/dixie setting. While I can't discern any change in pitch tendencies, I do feel it slots better. I'm one who has to play a horn a bit to tell exactly what I feel. So, I should know better in a week. Some of what I feel could be psychological, but I am certain that the horn blows more freely. Also, the plastic tubing is so tight that I cannot easily adjust the main slide, so I wouldn't want to leave it this way. I'll attempt to post pics here!

[iiipopes]

A friend of mine who used to own a 56J also completely bypassed the 5th valve by doing it the "proper" way: he ordered the correct diameter silver plated tubing directly from Conn and had a local tech disassemble the 5th valve rotor and tubing, and put the straight pipe in its place.

He had exactly the same positive results you had, and it was definitely audible to me, as I was one of the few who, sitting next to him in community band, got to hear the direct before/after.

I think part of the problem is not the valve, per se, but for economic reasons Conn did a different design and valve from what Matt Walters originally spec'ed in the the prototype.

[sloan]

There's an easier "conversion" - and you get cash-back.

Take the Conn to the shop. Exchange it for the King. Pocket the difference in price.

[windshieldbug]

If it plays better that way, why "fix" it? I say just lube up the main and go with it!

(Then again, if you'd've ever seen my symphonic horns you'd know why it took 2 years to get my Marzan CC working again after one recording session with my community band... )

[MartyNeilan]

From the Pimp My Tuba thread a few weeks back:

13.5) removing the 5th valve (on a 5 valve horn) to make it a 4 valve horn.

[windshieldbug]

You might consider having it done so that you can swap it in/out with a straight pipe, the way so many of the bone players I've worked with have their F valves worked...

[windshieldbug]

Hey, I type slow. It's not nice to make fun of the mentally disabled!

[Bill Troiano]

Thanks for all of the positive responses regarding my horn. In talking with Matt Walters a while back, he did tell me that the 5th valve that Conn used was smaller than the one he had in mind and, perhaps, he used in the prototype. Also, Conn's 4th valve wrap on these horns is not what Matt had wanted. I did play a horn at Dillon's with the 4th valve tubing rerouted more behind the horn. It definitely was easier to hold as the center of gravity shifted more toward the center of the horn without all of the 4th valve tubing off to the side. I'll be bringing my horn in for Matt to check out regarding the new tube replacing the 5th valve.

I had not considered (didn't even realize) that the horn would play more sharp without the 5th valve. I didn't realize that the valve took up that much length. It makes sense, though.

Now, I'll have 2 CC tubas (Yammy 621CC) with a .689 bore. What to do, what to do?

[Steve Inman]

I'm contemplating having Matt put the "right" 5th valve rotor onto my 56J. But that's a significantly more expensive way to go. I just HATE playing notes 2,4 -- I find 2,3,5 much easier.

And yes, Wade, if I do this and end up with spare parts, we can talk!

Cheers,

[Chuck(G)]

Here's one that I've wondered about.

A lot of makers who put the 5th valve after the 4th (piston) valve make the bore on the 5th larger. So, if one were to put the 5th ahead of the first, would there be an advantage to making the bore through the 5th slightly smaller than that of the first piston valve?

[MartyNeilan]

Here's one that I've wondered about.

A lot of makers who put the 5th valve after the 4th (piston) valve make the bore on the 5th larger. So, if one were to put the 5th ahead of the first, would there be an advantage to making the bore through the 5th slightly smaller than that of the first piston valve?

Isn't that what Yamaha does on the 621 F? On that horn (kinda like the G-50) the 5th valve almost becomes an extension of the leadpipe.

[Chuck(G)]

Isn't that what Yamaha does on the 621 F? On that horn (kinda like the G-50) the 5th valve almost becomes an extension of the leadpipe.

How well does it work? Is it worth emulating?

[iiipopes]

Here's one that I've wondered about.

A lot of makers who put the 5th valve after the 4th (piston) valve make the bore on the 5th larger. So, if one were to put the 5th ahead of the first, would there be an advantage to making the bore through the 5th slightly smaller than that of the first piston valve?

I don't know -- anybody know how it was done on the Getzen/M-W?

[Tom]

Here's one that I've wondered about.

A lot of makers who put the 5th valve after the 4th (piston) valve make the bore on the 5th larger. So, if one were to put the 5th ahead of the first, would there be an advantage to making the bore through the 5th slightly smaller than that of the first piston valve?

I don't know -- anybody know how it was done on the Getzen/M-W?

I had a CB-50 for several years.

The 5th valve was indeed a small rotor mounted before the 1st piston in the very short leadpipe. It was a small diameter rotor (notably smaller than the standard MW 5th valve included with most of their "big valve" piston CC tubas), but I do not know the bore. The pistons on the CB-50 were .689, small by modern tuba standards, though the Conn 5xJ series is .687 (yeah, I know...the difference is very small). So, I'm not sure how much smaller the bore of the rotor could have really been, but I never measured mine with my calipers and no longer own it

I thought the CB-50 played great (I just had to have something bigger, so I sold it) and that the 5th valve notes and the low register in general were very responsive and easy to play. It did take a while to get used to the change in the feel of the instrument suddenly having a couple of extra feet of tubing in the leadpipe every time you hit the 5th valve though.

What did not work really well was the highly touted "BBb conversion," in which the the 5th valve was flipped to turn the horn into a BBb. The valve slides were long enough that they could all be pulled to make the thing play in tune, but it played awfully stuff with air constantly being redirected through the tightly wrapped 5th slide such a short distance into the leadpipe.

BTW- A few years ago I remember seeing a Hirsbrunner HB-2p at Dillon's that actually had the 5th valve in the leadpipe before the piston cluster from the factory. I did not ever play it and I do not know where it ended up.

[Bill Troiano]

I didn't really expect a response from my last statement, but I should have known I'd get one, and that's cool! Yeah, 2 tubas of similar size, but for what I play these days, I guess I really have no reason to need something else. Now, wanting something else-that's a different story. I could see playing all of my gigs on the 52J, where I can't see playing large ensemble gigs on the 621CC. No orchestra gigs these days.

Last night, I played a concert band gig with my son sitting next to me playing tuba (he has a 56J). So, I went to hit a (ff) low Db, which I sometimes play 235. Of course, I removed 5 (pushed the trigger with nothing attached to it), but forgot and a nice big, unfocused Eb came out. It sounded more like gas! I was embarrassed, but my son thought it was hilarious. Then, the set drummer next to me was scratching from mosquito bites. I went to my bag behind my seat and got him some OFF. A few minutes later, I smelled something burning, turned around and saw my bag smoking. I had dropped the bag on a light in the cement floor of the outdoor stage. Now, I have a 4 in. hole in the top of my bag. Then, I got back to my car (with son and daughter, both who played with me) to find out the Yanks lost in 13. What a night! But, I still prefer the 52J without the 5th valve.

Dixie trio gig this afternoon. I'll use the Yammy!

[iiipopes]

Yanking perfectly good 5th rotors off of tubas and reporting amazing improvements has become old hat...particularly for this one model (that just happens to have a valveset that unbolts from the instrument.

Reminds me of the old joke:
Setup: "Do you believe in ______________(fill in the blank)?"
Punch: "Believe in it? Hell, I've SEEN IT!"

Yes, for these tubas, Conn took a great idea, and a great prototype, and absolutely trashed it with their tinkering with the original 5th valve spec. The tuba overall is a fine tuba, and the guy I sat next to was a 20 year Navy band vet who knew his stuff. It really did make that much difference, both up close and across the performance hall.

Some of you guys need to start hanksawing away your 4th pistons and reporting back...

If I had my 'druthers, I'd still be playing my Besson as my main tuba, but the director likes the tone of my Miraphone better, so that I play for community band. But everywhere else I can I still prefer and do play the 3-valve comp, and probably will have its leaks fixed next season. Outdoors, I do play my souzy with the one modification I've posted elsewhere: convert the top loop of the 1st valve tubing into a slide to be worked by the left hand to help intonation for the usual culprits. So I do play with three valves as much as possible. I'm sure there are others are the same way.