baritone mute

[tuba_hacker]

The tuba/baritone book for Ragtime calls for a mute in the baritone parts, mostly playing along with muted french horns.

Problem is...it's pretty difficult to insert a mute into a bell-front instrument...at least in a delicate manner that doesn't draw undue attention.

The reference to using a doggy dish in tubanews seems to be the only easy solution. Anyone else with experience or suggestions?

George

[tuba_hacker]

Thanks. I figured there was a difference between euphonium and baritone, but didn't know what it was. I should've known that someone on Tubenet would set me straight.

That being said, I still have the mute problem. I don't want to sound like a muted french horn, but I would like to blend with them better than I'm doing with the open horn. I suppose the doggy dish is an inexpensive way as any to find out how it works. Come to think of it, a felt hat might even work.

[Peach]

The tuba/baritone book for Ragtime calls for a mute in the baritone parts, mostly playing along with muted french horns.

Problem is...it's pretty difficult to insert a mute into a bell-front instrument...at least in a delicate manner that doesn't draw undue attention.

The reference to using a doggy dish in tubanews seems to be the only easy solution. Anyone else with experience or suggestions?

George

Well... thats because the instrument that you're playing isn't a baritone... the "bell-front" instrument that you are referring to has unfortunately become known in common terminology as a baritone, when it absolutely is not a baritone... the correct terminology is an American Bell-Front Euphonium... The basic distinction is that a Baritone would be a completely cylindrical instrument (until the bell flare happens), whereas the conical versions of these instruments are Euphoniums.... The bell front euphonium is a bit less conical than their upright bell cousins... but they are undoubtedly conical.

David Werden's website provides a much more in depth explanation as to the differences and similarities between upright and bell front euphoniums and baritones.. heres the link:

http://www.dwerden.com/eu-articles-bareuph.cfm

To chime-in about Euph Vs Baritone, I don't think you can adequately differentiate between the two.
Sure, you can generalise but that's what it is.
You could line up 100 Bari-Phoniums from the tiniest 'Baritone' to the fattest Euphonium and have no discernible point where the Baritones stop and the Euphoniums begin.
If someone makes a large bore Baritone is that automatically a Euph? Says who (the manufacturer I suppose)?

It's no different from the ??/4 designations of tubas or folks trying to pinpoint exactly what a BAT is. A BAT is a big *** tuba; that's all.

[druby]

Tuba_Hacker,

On the extraordinary times I have needed a mute or when doubling a muted 'bone part, I have done the following... Stick my hand down the bell and cup the bore of the horn (like a french horn player does). I have done this with my Besson Sovereign upright by reaching up and sticking my hand in...You have to mess with the tuning slide as well. Don't laugh..it works in a pinch.

OTOH, I just pulled out my Conn bell-front euph and tried the following:

1. Turn the bell sideways (to the left) and stick my left hand in the bell.....Ugh. Intonation goes nearly a half step flat.

The next two methods work if you have a fixed bell-front.

2. Use the plunger from my trombone to mute. Works much better than #1 and doesn't blow the intonation as bad but low range becomes amost impossible due to back-pressure.

3. Use my trombone cup mute an hold it near (but not quite touching) the Euph bell. This worked the best. Still could play down to low F.

All of the above produce more of a cup mute sound rather than a straight mute sound. I have played my bell-up euph with a straight mute and it sounds pretty much like a muted trombone. Due to the few number of bell front horns being produced (all low end student horns), I don't believe anyone makes a bell-front euph mute anymore. (EDIT:I guess a stone-lined 164A would work...)

Doug

[druby]

To chime-in about Euph Vs Baritone, I don't think you can adequately differentiate between the two.
Sure, you can generalise but that's what it is.
You could line up 100 Bari-Phoniums from the tiniest 'Baritone' to the fattest Euphonium and have no discernible point where the Baritones stop and the Euphoniums begin.
If someone makes a large bore Baritone is that automatically a Euph? Says who (the manufacturer I suppose)?

It's no different from the ??/4 designations of tubas or folks trying to pinpoint exactly what a BAT is. A BAT is a big *** tuba; that's all.

spoken like a true Tuba player....

I have played exclusively "Euphonium" for 47 years (student, college, amatuer and professional). I currently own 4 horns. Three are American "baritones" which are more like my English euphonium than like an English baritone. These include a 1932 Pan-American, 1941 Holton double-bell, and a 1968 Conn Connstellation. I also have a modern (1980) English-style Besson Sovereign. All four of these horns play and sound (to varying degrees) quite similar. All have bores from about .560 to .590, have short lead pipes, and are conical immediately after the valve block. These days, I refer to these as "Euphoniums".

If you sit down with an English style "baritone", they are MUCH smaller bore (typically around .500), are more nearly cylindrical, and have a much smaller sound. They also blow and play differently. If the composer knows the difference and the part really calls for a "baritone" as opposed to a "euphonium" you would chose this much smaller horn.

Howeer, I will grant that ALL of these horns are of the genus "tuba". Thus if I were to use your point of view, I would start with the Eb Alto horn and end with the largest BBb "6/4" BAT and call all of these "Tuba". (Though I suspect that we might make some clear distinctions about which is which.)

Doug Ruby

[Peach]

OK, I might've been on a bit of a rant last night but I still see more similarities than differences in a lot of Bariphoniums.
Also, regarding the tuba ??/4 issue, there's a WHOLE lot more difference between say a Miraphone 184 and a York-o-phone than your average Baritone-Euphonium.

184:


York-o-phone:



Thanks to Charley Brighton for below images (used without his permission - sorry). These and many more available on his great site: http://www.euph9.freeserve.co.uk/page1.htm

V. early Besson Euph (1888)


Early Euph (1905):


1970's Besson Compenasting Euph:


French Baritone:


German Baritone:


Besson 2-20 Baritone:


Quite a difference between the last Besson Bari and the 70's Besson Euph but the others all fall somewhere in between.
Where's the line?

I don't buy the Cylindrical Vs. Conical thing either. They're all conical to some extent and when that varies it's hard to measure...

I'd say that these instruments haven't been around long enough to completely stabilise in design (same certainly goes for Tubas).

Any thoughts?
(btw, OP, try to buy/borrow a H&B mute for the bell-front...)

[tuba_hacker]

Thanks all for chiming in. Over the weekend I thought about trying a french horn mute, but then, I already have a felt hat and trombone plunger mute, so I'll give those a try.

The hijacking of the thread was entertaining. Folks on Tubenet setting me straight? Indeed! It confirms my belief about the hard and fast rules about what constitutes a baritone and a euphonium...there are none. The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

"you say TOW-MAY-TOW, and I'll say TOW-MAH-TOW"

[eupher61]

yes, there ARE hard and fast rules about which is which, but the so-called American Baritone Horn fits neither.

Tell a BBB person that there's no difference.

Better still, play a true baritone, and a true euphonium, and an American Baritone Horn, and see what you think.

Totally different.