Most overrated tubas?

[davidgilbreath]

Any horn that I can't afford.

[cjk]

... I will be sacreligeous and say I think the Holton 345 (and I even own one!) is slightly overrated for the following reasons:

1. Flat 3rd partials - more modern horns have better intonation
2. Attack response - I've played (albeit on slightly smaller horns) large horns with better attacks. And I'm still learning and working on the attacks on the Holton - its just like flying a brick sometimes
3. A good one is fairly pricy.

Not to say I don't love my horn, and it is a great contrast to the 186 (aka tone knob).

I really don't mean to offend anybody, but ...

I'm sooooo glad a Holton 345 owner posted that.

They sound great, but have a goofy scale and the low register blows sideways. I've played several Holtons that were described as "the best tuba I've ever played! I'll never sell it! blah blah blah". While they were decent, I was quite happy to give them back. I couldn't see buying one of these over a PCK or a Willson 3050 unless it cost a whole lot less.

I find the Conn 20J and family overrated. In truth, I despise them. Personally, I think they're a complete waste of brass. Think of how many shell casings or lamps or could be made out of one of those. Frankly, if the only tuba I had access to was a 20J, I'd quit.

[a2ba4u]

I cast my overrate vote for the YamaYork.

I played the floor model last year at ITEC. Given the Yamaha booth rep's hype and the few posts that I'd read about it on Tubenet (not to mention its price), I was fully expecting a horn that could cure cancer, wash my dishes, AND win me any gig that I bothered to audition for.

Despite my arsenal of mouthpieces and several trips to the room over the few days that I was there, my impression of the axe was decidedly "meh." I simply couldn't find anything about the horn to get excited about. It sounded...ok; it blew...ok; its consistency was...ok; its intonation (an admittedly difficult parameter to evaluate accurately in any kind of convention setting) struck me as....ok; its price is...absurd.

I think a large amount of the "overratedness" of this horn (in contrast to some of the others mentioned previously) comes as a result of Yamaha's marketing push. They've already gotten some big names attached to it; they charge a super-premium price; I was informed of the "waiting list" that Y had for the production models; and only a few of us commonfolk have actually had the opportunity to sit with it. This of course is nothing new in business--it's basic marketing that is replicated in other areas (Italian sports cars, ocean-front real estate, etc.) where the product being hyped doesn't live up to the expectations (iPhone, anyone?).

Just my $30000, er, $0.02.

Kyle

[pulseczar]

After 7 pages, there hasn't been much talk about bass tubas.

pulse "assuming the majority of Fs and Eefers are good horns" czar

[tubafatness]

After 7 pages, there hasn't been much talk about bass tubas.

pulse "assuming the majority of Fs and Eefers are good horns" czar

I have limited experience with bass tubas, but from my dealings, I've never been too thrilled with the Perantucci bass tubas that many on here love and covet. They didn't seem to click as much as the other bass tubas that I actually enjoyed playing, (i.e., MW 2182, 45-SLP, Mira 181-6 and Firebird and willson Eb.)

[Rick Denney]

...I will be sacreligeous and say I think the Holton 345 (and I even own one!) is slightly overrated for the following reasons:

1. Flat 3rd partials - more modern horns have better intonation
2. Attack response - I've played (albeit on slightly smaller horns) large horns with better attacks. And I'm still learning and working on the attacks on the Holton - its just like flying a brick sometimes
3. A good one is fairly pricy....

Um...Them's fightin' words!

I said that just to amuse Wade.

The third partial on my Holton is not flat at all. The fifth partial is also in tune. That doesn't mean it isn't squirrelly.

You can't generalize about the attacks and response on Holtons. They vary all over the map. Mine is alive and resonant, and I get fewer complaints that I'm behind the beat with the Holton than with the York Master. I recommend an anti-woof mouthpiece with the Holton. Trying to go dark on a Holton will just make mud. Use a colorful mouthpiece and let the instrument provide the depth. I've also played Holtons that were mired in mud.

And pricey? Well, let's not reopen that argument. Whether those who pay the price will be happy with what they paid some months later is a more important question and I think that's where you are headed. The question is not price, but value. A good Holton can compete fairly with any big tuba in its price range. The BBb versions are, at their best, a great deal. The bad ones often sit on the market in search of a buyer, or get disassembled and recycled into other projects. Of course, all Holtons fit somehwere on the continuum between their best and worst examples, and where they sit on that continuum is subject to personal opinion.

In terms of being overrated, which to me means that most people think they are better than they really are, I agree. But the reason they are overrated is because the good ones are so good. The reputation is based on the things said by the people who own the good ones (myself included), and those things often don't apply to the bowsers.

Like all 6/4 tubas, Holtons are squirrelly, even the good ones. And they are not forgiving of insufficient air, though the good ones provide a marvelous payback for the air you do provide. They represent one of the few opportunities for Bb tuba players to have an orchestra-grade Yorkish BAT.

I've played many big tubas, including many comparisons side-by-side with the Holton. I have preferred my battered old BBb Holton to many a high-end CC grand orchestral instrument with a five-figure price tag. But not always. One recent example is the Baer-model CC that Mr. Fedderly had just purchased for his own use. That instrument had it all, and without the squirrelliness associated with 6/4 instruments. It was unequivocally better than the Holton, not that it does me any good.

Rick "who would NEVER recommend a Holton without a thorough play-test and some trusted advice" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I couldn't see buying one of these over a PCK or a Willson 3050 unless it cost a whole lot less.

I'll restrict my comments to BBb instruments, which is one boundary of my solution space (and apparently within yours, since you included comments on the Conn 2xJ).

If I ever had an opportunity to play a PBK, I might agree with you.

But I have played the Willson 3100 on many occasions, and frankly I'd MUCH rather have my Holton. The Willson is not without its squirrelly aspects, but the biggest problem with it is that it's like attaching a mouthpiece to a concrete wall. I get nothing in response and can't tell what's coming out of the bell. I also found the ergonomics atrocious. If people were actually buying them, I'd say they were overrated.

I once owned a 20J, and found that the scale was unmanageable and the instrument would not make a sound smaller than mezzo-forte. I also once played a (much older and better) 20J that was owned by Lee Stofer and it was relatively in tune and the sound was even throughout the instrument. It's response was far eaiser. But I don't think they are over-rated. They are what they are, and their quirks are usually acknowledged along with their strengths.

Bad Holtons are usually obviously so from the first blow, as your own experience confirms. But "bad" and "good" are really representations of how well the instrument fulfills the requirements of the player, and those requirements and objectives do differ.

Rick "who has never minimized the horribleness of bad Holtons" Denney

[djwesp]

After 7 pages, there hasn't been much talk about bass tubas.

pulse "assuming the majority of Fs and Eefers are good horns" czar

Here's one for you.


Miraphone is known for consistency and quality control. The Miraphone/Mirafone 180 Bass Tuba, is one of the most inconsistent horns ever.


No halfway point with these puppies. The majority just plain sound like poop, spare a couple of them that have been tweaked or are the bright apples in the barrel.

[Rick Denney]

YFB621. Why you may ask? Expensive, bland, doesn't project well... And yep I own one the these too. Its a trick horn, you can do anything on it, but if playing in an ensemble with it, it pretty much gets lost. Seems a little pointless to most of the applications.

Goodie, I get to go after you again, heh, heh.

I actually think the 621 is underrated. Most people think it is not as good as it really is. There are things it doesn't do, but I don't recall anybody every really expecting them to do those things. They are not an orchestral F.

But in chamber music they work just fine, and if you don't need the big projection, they are easy to play and consistently get a good result. They are also easy to schlep to a gig. Many will set those features aside in pursuit of something that isn't "bland," but I see them being used appropriately by plenty of working pros. It's the only isntrument I own that actually has paid for itself, and it makes me sound like a better player than I am.

Whether they are reasonably priced or not is another matter altogether. Not too many folks will pay what Yamaha is currently asking, so it's fair to say that the market is demanding a different price than Yamaha will accept. (I paid far less than the current price for mine.)

The pre-Parantucci B&S Symphonie F tuba is another one that is underrated, in that they are generally better than most people think they are. But the better ones are jealously guarded by their owners. They are anything but bland and not nearly as easy to play as the Yamaha, but they project like crazy and can make themselves heard in any orchestra. I actually think they would not be underrated if they were not so affordable--too many people equate value with price.

Rick "whose bass tubas complement each other nicely" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Heh, I figured you would chime in on the defense of the 345 Rick. You took the bait!

Reviewing what I've written, I don't think I defended 345's in general at all. I didn't even defend my own excellent one without some qualification, even though I've never played a big BBb tuba that I thought worked as well for me.

Rick "who wouldn't have seen the bait had not Joe brought my attention back to this thread" Denney

[bort]

The MW-25 has never really "done it for me." Nothing wrong with it, just not for me.

[Anterux]

I think it's hard to beat Thein at the most overrated tuba (or any other instrument they buid) contest...

I cant see no reason for an instrument to cost so much. But maybe I'm being blind...

Kind Regards.

[iiipopes]

You are not blind. Truth hurts. I agree -- Thein is the ultimate overrated tuba.

[Rick Denney]

I cant see no reason for an instrument to cost so much.

Here's the formula: They can only build three tubas a year, and they can persuade three people to pay their price. (It may be one or 10 per year, but you get the idea).

Who knows? Maybe Thein tubas would be the Next Big Thing if they were inexpensive enough and available enough for people to actually consider them.

Rick "noting that limited supply always goes to the people willing to pay the most" Denney

[Steve Inman]

It's STILL beautiful to look at ...

[MartyNeilan]

It's STILL beautiful to look at ...

The Bloke-o-phone
R.I.P.
Rest In Pieces?

[Wyvern]

and to most, thats all that matters

Sad, but true.

I don't know if that is really true. Yes, like when buying a car, appearance is important and maybe an initial draw, but I still think performance is the number one factor in deciding the purchase.

Jonathan "who has been attracted to tubas by their looks, but discarded as soon as play tested"

[Steve Inman]

I attended a Tony Kniffen recital a few years ago in Indy.

Tony had an older F tuba.

Tony's tuba's bell had experienced some noticable damage.



Tony had not had time to get it fixed.

The appearance flaw was obvious.

Tony played wonderfully -- he & dented tuba sounded fantastic.

Appearance didn't count.

Cheers,

[MikeMason]

Lots of people,especially audiences,hear with their eyes...

[Chuck(G)]

Lots of people,especially audiences,hear with their eyes...

...especially when they should be smelling with their ears...