Contrabass Trombone?

[Mudman]

Wagner's Ring Cycle and operatic works by several other composers feature contrabass trombone.

The contrabass trombone is starting to generate a great deal of interest among bass trombone players. Dutch virtuoso Ben van Dijk has recently shown us how good the instrument can sound through recitals and recordings. His student Brandt Attema is another amazing player who convinced audiences at the 2004 ITF that contrabass is a viable and soloistic instrument.

Contrabass is probably more popular in Europe than in the US. A student of Charlie Vernon's mentioned that Charlie had just started learning the instrument a year ago.

Trombonists would most likely be called to play any contrabass trombone parts.

Thein makes a great contra in F. Very expensive.

[Leland]

Are cimbassos used in place of contrabass trombones very often, if at all?

[Jay Bertolet]

Not to my knowledge Leland because they are very different instruments, the main difference being valves versus a slide. That said, the sounds are quite similar since the horns are generally pitched in the same relative octave. Especially the larger cimbassi have much in common sound-wise with the contrabass trombone.

My opinion for what it's worth...

[Chuck Jackson]

Let's see if I can muddy the waters a bit:

F Bass Trombone-same as an F tuba, usually used for the Contrabass parts in Wagner in Bayreuth and the states. Mirafone, Czerveny, Thein make excellent examples of this instrument. Only ones I have seen and played all come with 4 rotary valves. Bartok wrote for this instrument, albeit one with a slide. The gliss in the Concerto for Orchestra and some of the stuff in the Miraculous Mandarin show it to good effect. Oddly enough, bartok wrote the Concerto for Orchestra for the Boston Symphony and was in American at the time, but still wrote for an instrument that was almost only used in Eastern European countries. Old habits die hard, I guess. BTW, Great DVD of the Vienna Phil from 1960 doing the 1st Act of Seigried, great close ups of the F bass trombone.

BBb Contrabass Trombone: same as the BBb tuba, double wrapped slide, very cool instrument to play. The only example I HAVE seen and played was a Mirafone. It was easy to play and had a FF valve, very rare speciman. Wagner probably wrote for this instrument.

I have played a 4 valve Mirafone F bass Trombone in lieu of a cimbasso for Andrea Bocelli and Pavarotti courtesy of the Chicago Lyric Opera. Steve Mecurio, Bocelli's conductor liked it, Pavarotti's conductor couldn't have picked a tuba or a cimbasso out of a roomful of cats. Bocelli is coming back to LV this year, but the Philharmonic has the contract, I will be interested to see what the player in the orchestra is asked to use.

Hope this Helps,
Chuck

[finnbogi]

David Bobroff, who plays bass trombone in the Iceland Symphony Orchestra has got a slide contrabass trombone in F. Since the instrument is quite long, it only has five effective slide positions. Therefore, it has two valves in addition to the slide; the first one tuned at (usually quite flat) D below the first line and the second one at A on the third line below the staff.
I've heard David play the contrabass a few times and found it a rather cool instrument.

[Dylan King]

Don't forget the studios. Tommy Johnson and Jom self both have contra-trombones and play them regulary. Tommy has a contra bass valve trombone in CC that he had custom made by Minick. Elfman, Zimmer, Davis, and so many other top "A" list composers write for enormous low brass sections these days. Sometimes including 2-6 tubas, conta-trombones, and cimbassos. Most bass trombone and tuba players in Hollywood can double on contrabass and own or could borrow one easily.

[Tom Holtz]

I got to talk a bit with Bill Reichenbach, bass trombonist, about the L.A. studio scene at the last U. S. Army Band Tuba-Euphonium Conference, and he talked about how composers are always looking for new and interesting colors to use in their orchestrations. He said he's always having to borrow or find obscure instruments to cover what's been written in today's film scores. At his masterclass, he described his first encounter with a serpent. I don't remember his words exactly... all he could get out of the instrument was a sick groaning sound, and no matter what combination of holes he put his fingers over, the pitch never changed. Still, he figured it out and laid it down when the mics were on. I expect that euphonium, tenor horn, contrabass trombone, cimbasso, tenor tuba, and tromboon are probably all fair game for a studio trombonist in the motion picture industry. Gentlemen, that takes nerves (and chops) of steel. Better him than me.

[Chuck Jackson]

Let me see if I can clear this up:

1. Bartoks instrument was a BASS trombone in F with a slide. The instruments I was refering too were BASS trombones in F with valves.

2. A true CONTRABASS trombone is in BBb, the same pitch as a tuba, has a double wrapped slide and possibly a FF valve.

Hope that helps.

[Mudman]

Let me see if I can clear this up:

1. Bartoks instrument was a BASS trombone in F with a slide. The instruments I was refering too were BASS trombones in F with valves.

2. A true CONTRABASS trombone is in BBb, the same pitch as a tuba, has a double wrapped slide and possibly a FF valve.

Hope that helps.

Technically you are right. The horn that the Thein brothers are selling as a contrabass trombone is really just a BIG F trombone. Mark Thompson (who wrote the guide to french solo music for low brass players) got into a discussion with one of the Thein brothers at this year's trombone convention. Mark was saying that the Thein was not really a true contra. Apparently this idea didn't go over too well with the makers

Whatever they call their biggest trombones, they sure sound amazing.

[jsswadley]

Apart from the Wagner Ring, also Elektra by Strauss has a contrabass trombone part. In the opera, if you don't mind developing some serious slide technique, an f trombone would be ideal for Verdi's parts. In fact, Verdi asked for four trombones in his ideal orchestra, and no tuba at all. All of Puccini's parts except for Manon Lescaut are for a contrabass trombone-they sound much better with the four trombones. I recently played two great f contrabass trombones at a showing of Thein and Shires trombones. The Thein was magnificent, extremely expensive, of course. The Shires people also showed me an f trombone which came also with an extremely wide bore Bb bass trombone bell section. Especially Siegfried is better with a real contrabass instrument to go with that great solistic tuba part. Schoenberg Gurrelieder also has a part. A really good player who knew these parts and could sell themselves could probably do well with a real contrabass trombone. John

[jsswadley]

Apart from the Wagner Ring, also Elektra by Strauss has a contrabass trombone part. In the opera, if you don't mind developing some serious slide technique, an f trombone would be ideal for Verdi's parts. In fact, Verdi asked for four trombones in his ideal orchestra, and no tuba at all. All of Puccini's parts except for Manon Lescaut are for a contrabass trombone-they sound much better with the four trombones. I recently played two great f contrabass trombones at a showing of Thein and Shires trombones. The Thein was magnificent, extremely expensive, of course. The Shires people also showed me an f trombone which came also with an extremely wide bore Bb bass trombone bell section. Especially Siegfried is better with a real contrabass instrument to go with that great solistic tuba part. Schoenberg Gurrelieder also has a part. A really good player who knew these parts and could sell themselves could probably do well with a real contrabass trombone. John

[Biggs]

If Im not mistaken, Bartoks Concerto for Orchestra was written for bass trombone not the Contra Bass, right? When Ive done it Ive had to reach over and lend a hand on the Gliss...its a section pleaser as the tuba player goes for the "reach-around"

Pardon my ignorance (once again), but what is the challenge unique to the bass trombone glissando in Concerto for Orchestra? As a former trombonist, I am particularly curious.

[Chuck Jackson]

The gliss is from a low B natural to an F, impossible for a trombone pitched in Bb. The beauty of the F bass trombone is that the gliss is from 7th-1st position, a breeze.

Chuck

[Mudman]

Pardon my ignorance (once again), but what is the challenge unique to the bass trombone glissando in Concerto for Orchestra? As a former trombonist, I am particularly curious.

It's not possible to gliss from low B-natural to low F without resorting to some trickery.

There are several techniques for doing the Bartok Gliss on a conventional bass trombone.

1. Play low B-natural using both valves, then let up the second valve while glissing (half-valve technique) and land on F. Very effective if you can get enough sound out to cover up the half-valve. Takes practice.

2. Tuba player plays the low B and bass bone sneaks into the gliss. I think that it is done that way on one of my Montreal Symphony recordings with Dutoit conducting (not certain--it's been awhile since I listened to that recording).

3. (my favorite just for the crazy factor) Tie a string to f-attachment tubing. Pull out f-attachment slide so you can get a low B in 7th position. Tie the other end of the string into a loop that goes around your foot. While glissing up, move your leg out to pull in the f-attachment tubing. Works like a charm.

4. Pull out f-attachment so you can play low B in 7th. While glissing up, have the tuba player push in your f-attachment slide. This is also a good way to have the tuba player push the mouthpiece away from your face resulting in some strange (or no) sounds. Risky unless you are buddies with the tuba player.

5. Use a sliding-extension valve (thumb trigger to kick your attachment slide in and out). Aharoni has pictures in his Bass Trombone method.

6. Rent an F bass.

On an audition, you are not going to have an F bass. The conventional way is probably #1 (half-valve through the gliss). If the hall is resonant, the listener can't tell that you are changing valves during a gliss.

[Tom Mason]

Let me muddy the picture some more.

Doug Yeo also played contra in some of the BSO works. He had a Bach 50 bell and 2 slide sections put together to make an F contrabass. It is rented out in a Boston shop to those who want to use it. Double slide and no valve last time I saw it.

F contrabasses, C contrabasses and BBb contrabasses offer differeng glissando options as well as having differing timbre issues. Some of these issues are addressed by having 1 or 2 rotors added in different configurations than normally attached to a trombone. (F, D, C; F, E, C: BBb, FF)

One other option becoming available, but less frequently used is the bass trombone in Bb, F, Gb, D with a D slide for the second valve. It makes the horn Bb, F, D, B; with enough room for the second valve to be in C or B; therefore both being in BBb or A. The downside to this setup is more combinations to remember and the stuffiness associated with some contrabasses. Bach and Weril make these optional slides for their horns, as far as I know.

Tom Mason

[Chuck Jackson]

OK Joe, maybe not impossible, at least your answer keeps you in business