St. Petersburg question

ken k · Post by **ken k** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:42 pm

Howdy Fellow tubenetters,

I have on loan a St. pete and it is quite a nice player. I know they have a reputation on the board here for not being very durable, but this is my first chance to really play one at length and I must say it is pretty darn nice. I can see how it has that reputation. It is very light, so i am guessing that the metal is very thin. that also probably is what makes the horn so responsive. it is a very easy blowing horn. it takes no effort to get a nice sound out of it. now that could make it get nasty when you really honk on it. I have not really laid into it yet.

Are these horns made of brass with nickel plating or is it made of nickel? It reminds me a bit of some old vintage tubas from the 1800's that I have played that were made of nickel or what was called German Silver.

ken k

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:57 pm

I had a nickel Pete. The 202N horn.

It was nice, but the Pete's have a huge inconsistancy problem. Some are great...others are not so nice. Mine happened to be pretty nice too though.

Anyway, it was Nickel plating over the brass and I know this because the thin nickel wore down pretty quick.

Also, they are made of this metal...BUT I dunno......if you drop a horn or hit a wall with it, you're probably going to dent it no matter how thick, so basically, thickness doesn't matter to me. Just take care of your investment.

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:52 pm

[quote="bloke"]Those that I've seen that were made in the last few years and sold by the U.S. importer/retailer are not what I would call "thin" nor "poorly made".

The scale is "good"...The sound is "robust"...somewhat "bright".

quote]

BRIGHT is right. It had been advertised as "dark"........hahaha, laughable

it has a great bright sound if that's what anyone likes. Very fun!!

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:54 pm

As one who has a retrofit St Pete bell on my detachable Miraphone 186, in addition to the recording bell, I can tell you: 1) it is nickel plated; 2) the throat is wider, but the flare is narrower for the same diameter as the "old-style" 186 16 1/2 inch bell (think more like flugel proportions); so 3) in spite of the nickel plating wanting to "brighten" the tone, the wide throat compared to the flare actually darkens it.

I receive many compliments regarding the tone of my tuba. But here's the kicker: the taper is different, so the bell stack is now shorter than a "stock" upright Miraphone 186 bell would have been, had there been such a thing. So Dan had to lengthen the main tuning slide for me. Curious result: mid line D is still flat, as it is on a conventional 186. However, because the stack is shorter, the nodes are in different places, and the Db is only barely flat, and the C is right on.

I'm wondering what would happen if a decent valve block were put on the St Pete bugle?

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:35 pm

yes, plating doesn't really matter...except the fact that the nickel plating.....comes off like crazy. Just wiping it once or twice.

PLUS, I (haha) discovered AFTER acquiring my Pete that i was allergic to nickel...HAHA!!!!!!

So I HAD to get a new horn no matter what.

*VERY itchy arms.....*

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:53 pm

And for me, I'm wondering how long it's going to last. I have the opposite problem: my body chemistry corrodes nickel. I found this out the hard way on a Gibson Les Paul I used to own. The "thing" was to get the reissue pickups with the solid nickel covers for better tone. I did. After about six months of bar gigs, the nickel covers had almost corroded through! I went back to pickups with chrome plated covers, and no problem.

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:36 pm

Nickel tend to b easily corroded just by natural body sweat or other common things. Especially on guitars i've noticed this problem. Basically, chrome is the only metal I DONT have a problem with on my guitars. The gold and nickel both corrode.....and of course then i notice the sound not as nice,....

If only we could have a chrome tuba???? haha

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:41 pm

Kinda blows holes in their brochures from professors who recommend them for their consistency, doesn't it!

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:13 am

OK, if by the oddest chance we ever find ourselves together at a tuba function, one rule applies: nothing but gold brass tubas for each of us.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:23 am

Indeed. It has been my impression from what I have observed from various sources that the only really good nickel plate is done something along the lines of making sure you have a very clean base metal, then a layer of good copper plating, before the nickel plating, for maximum durability.

Don't know what to say, bloke. I can show you my guitars that the chrome has lasted decades, except for on one bass on a spot or two are worn through from planting my thumb on the pickup, that once worn through show corrosion on those couple of spots only, on the nickel substrate. The nickel covered pickups I posted about I sold to a guy who wanted the grunge look.

pierso20 · Post by **pierso20** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:24 am

HAHAHA

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:44 pm

Chromium plate is a porous material--it will admit corrosive agents to the underlying layer. That's one of the reasons that chromium-plated objects that must function in corrosive environments first receive a <b>heavy</b> (not just a "strike" coat) nickel plating before the chromium goes on.

However, contact dermatitis from nickel is very real. While a person can be very sensitive to nickel plating, the same person may notice no reaction to nickel containing stainless steels.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:39 pm

Chuck(G) wrote:However, contact dermatitis from nickel is very real.

Indeed. My son is that way not only with nickel, but most other metals as well, which makes brass playing interesting. I have found through trial and error he is not hypersensitive/allergic to plastic, such as nylon or lexan, gold plate, and lacquer. So he won't be doing a silver plated or nickel plated brass instrument with a conventional silverplated brass or solid stainless mouthpiece.

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:50 am

Bob1062 wrote:I seem to remember a used one for sale here; one of the old-style ones. I think the seller was "bassax."

Aren't the old ones generally considered to be good instruments (better than the newer ones)?

No, no, no!

The new ones have been significantly improved from the old ones. The main improvements have been to the valves, which no longer feel like they are made off steel wool, and the valve linkage which is now metal. Even if not ball and socket the new linkage won't fall apart like the old style did. The logo is now engraved on the bell instead of a glued on plate. From what I have seen assembly quality has improved too.

The few newer St. Petes that I have seen seem to be decent horns, although I still don't like the way they play, but they play and appear to be better made than the old models.

ken k · Post by **ken k** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:34 pm

I am guessing the horn I have here (which is for sale BTW) is about 6 to 7 years old. I knew the original owner, who unfortunately passed away about 4 years ago, which is when the present owner bought it from his widow. The original owner had become somewhat of a St. Petersburg junkie at the time. He always told me about how great the horn was for the money. He was quite a player too so it was not just some hack happy to get a cheap horn. He was a violin maker by trade who played bass and tuba. (The violin making business must have been pretty good because this guy went through tubas like I go through underwear.) He seemed to have a different horn every season and was really into geting old Holtons and Yorks fixed up and even sent some of his horns to Chicago (?) to be kryogenically frozen. So he was a bit of an eccentric when it came to tubas. Anyway he latched on to the St. Petes and ended up buying like 4 of them, including two of the famous black beauties. I must admit they are puurrty. So now there are a few of these floating around our town. The present owner wants to sell it, since he also has one of the aforementioned black beauties. I have it to show to a student and also to satisfy my curiousity, after reading all the tirades against them on this site.

Again this horn a pretty nice horn especially when the price is factored in. I saw new ones on the tuba exchange site are only $3195! It has a buzz in the bell on certain notes. I would have to investigate the cause if I were to by it. It reminds me alot of a czerveny piggy, wrapped fairly small with a surprisingly large tone. i guess the bore size is fairly large. I would also like to put the old leather band around the bell like we used to do back in the 70's to help hold it together at louder volumes. If I had a spare 2K laying around and had a use for a BBb tuba (I play an Eb primarily) I would consider buying it.

ken "Not intending to start a St Pete tirade but just thought I would share some of my experiences with a horn." k

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:00 pm

ken k wrote:I would also like to put the old leather band around the bell like we used to do back in the 70's to help hold it together at louder volumes.

The best thing for that now is to get a length of clear plastic 5/16" od - 3/16" id tubing from any good home improvement store (mine was $.14/foot, so to do a souzy bell was all of $1.05 including local sales tax!), take an exacto knife or rig a jig like Sam Gnagny uses, split the tubing along its length, and affix it to the bell rim. You get the same damping effect, plus it is a good rim protector and invisible from a distance as well. I have done this both to my instruments to good effect.