Converting bass bone from dependent to independent

[jeopardymaster]

Way off topic. Does anyone out there know of a skilled shop for converting a bass trombone with dependent valve orientation to 2 independent valves? Any recommendations?

[MartyNeilan]

No disrespect intended, but try to spend some time with the dependent. Many players prefer this system for various reasons. One of the reasons independent was popular for a while because it was the only way to configure Thayer style valves. Dependent Thayers are now available by several manufactures and have received glowing reviews by those who have played on them. FWIW, I have owned both independent and dependent and did prefer the dependent once I got used to it, not to mention the resulting improvement in slide technique. The late Larry Minnick was known for most of the depen to indy conversions back a few years ago; they are not done very often these days.

[Ed Jones]

Eric Swanson in the Dallas area has done this type of conversion. This is major sugery so expect to pay a premium price.

If the problem is getting used to the side by side paddles, then just have the second valve set up to be operated with the middle finger like an independent system. The valve will still be dependent but much easier to operate.

[tuba_hacker]

Ed's right. It can be done but the cost is not trivial. I thought of adding a second valve on an old single-valve Holton TR-183, but the cost made me reconsider. Of course adding a second valve would probably cost less than converting a dependent horn. You don't say what kind of horn you have, but I've seen both a used Holton TR-181 and Getzen 1052 (both independent horns) for around $1500. That would almost certainly cost less than a conversion job, plus you'll have a backup horn.

[Evil Ronnie]

FWIW, I have owned both independent and dependent and did prefer the dependent once I got used to it, not to mention the resulting improvement in slide technique. .

Hi Marty,

I'm a comeback bass bone player, for over a year now, playing on a Greenhoe Bach (independent). I played a Holton 180 (dependent) back in the seventies when I served in the US Army Field Band of Washington, DC.

I find my situation to be exactly the opposite of the above quote. My Bb/Gb/F/D set up offers me many more slide position options, resulting in easier, more efficient slide work.

I'd love to hear some examples of what you find that your dependent set up does better than independent.

[tubafatness]

As a [somewhat] strong doubler on bass bone, I gravitated towards dependent because it gave me more of an open response as opposed to an independent setup. Despite that, though, the best bass bone I've played was a Greenhoe independent Conn. But, that was a special horn to begin with...
Anyways, all I know is that David Taylor switched back from independent to dependent, and if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for anyone out there, (kind of.)

[MartyNeilan]

FWIW, I have owned both independent and dependent and did prefer the dependent once I got used to it, not to mention the resulting improvement in slide technique.

I find my situation to be exactly the opposite of the above quote. My Bb/Gb/F/D set up offers me many more slide position options, resulting in easier, more efficient slide work.
I'd love to hear some examples of what you find that your dependent set up does better than independent.

Exactly my point. With an independent, you basically never have to go past 3rd position (with a G valve) or 4th position (with a Gb valve). Many players (and I am not saying you) use the valve as a crutch and never develop good slide technique. A dependent setup forces you to develop the same slide skills as a tenor player with an F attachment. Plus, you are only blowing through one valve the majority of the time, and the gooseneck is also more conical on a dependent, two factors that some think make the dependents blow better and have a cleaner sound in the mid to upper register.
FWIW, picking up a small bore tenor with NO attachments really made me have to work a little bit - while I used 6th position plenty on my 1062 I had virtually never needed to use 7th before.
I also agree with the earlier poster who suggested just splitting the paddles into a thumb-finger configuration while maintaining a dependent valve setup - all dependents made within at least the last 10 years have that configuration and it is a great improvement over the side-by-side.

[Evil Ronnie]

Marty,

I understand what you're saying now. Makes sense.

In my particular case, I returned to playing after a twenty-seven year lay-off. Back in the seventies, I had no idea that anything like an independent horn existed, I played a Bach 50B2 before the Holton and got around on both pretty well. But being only 5'7", seventh position was always a challenge.

A year ago, when I began playing again, I got in contact with my old teacher, Charlie Vernon, who strongly recommended going independent to me and I gave it a go. His reasoning is that the demands of the horn are so great physically, both from an air supply standpoint and from a tension-relaxation point of view, that any possible edge you can get (shorter slide throws) is beneficial and therefore desirable. And now that I weigh about a hundred pounds more than I did in the seventies, seventh position is not just difficult, it's almost an impossibility.

Being a weekend warrior (I play with a well known Chicagoland community concert band), I'm digging the heck out of never needing to go past fifth (low B on the Gb side) position. Being able to pop out a pedal Gb in 1st is a gas and low slurs in and out of the pedal range without needing to tense up and twist my neck out of joint are more pleasant to work on. I actully have a better low range than in the old days. I'm still trying to adapt to all the new positions, and sometimes actually forget where I'm going and which valve to press. I'm working on lots of scales in and out of the valve and pedal registers to try and get it more instinctive. So, for this short, fat fu**, independent is working and I'm having a blast.

Anyway, thanks for your answer to my question.