Classical music = Sinking ship

[Chuck(G)]

Seattle is sui generis, not West Coast, just as San Francisco isn't representative of Northern California. Here, you'll see a mixture of everything from jeans and Birkenstocks to coat and tie at symphony concerts.

IMOHO, the problem is that symphony orchestras don't play enough hip-hop.

[TubaRay]

IMOHO, the problem is that symphony orchestras don't play enough hip-hop.

One more comment like this and I will have to petition Sean to have you disemboweled from this site. And, yes, I have chosen my words with some care, here.

[andrew the tuba player]

This is totally an opinion so if i offend someone do tell and ill be quiet
I agree that we may be (or are) to formal. Not just with cost and dress though, but in our minds. When i watch people in an orchastra or even some concert bands, they look to me like they are...To upscale (as was said) to play anything but classical. I think maybe if we lost the suit and tie and threw the audiance a bone (figure of speech...the audience hopefully wont be dogs ) every once in a while people may appreicate us more, therefore likeing the music more. For instance, if an orchastra put on a big concert, i think the audiance would like it if right after you played Bach, you had some people in the orchastra preform in a Jazz ensemble....To "keep the audiance awake". Im a great admirer of orchrastral music and Classical..but ill admit, I have a few times found it hard to stay awake in the middle of the second and third three movement songs in a row. I think if we mixed it up a little itd make it alot more enjoyable. Like some of the newer rock bands do. If you go to a concert, chances are, theyre gonna play some pretty rocky stuff...But every once in a while theyll throw in a slow song, just to keep things flowing. I think maybe we should try putting divercity into our musical styles at a concert. I'm sure there isnt a rule that says that an orchastra cant play 'Rock around the clock" right after 'Beethoven's 5th".
Same goes for marching bands. If we only played Sousa marches every year (which, im in no way anti-sousa. I actually wanna do a sousa show..but only one) then, people would probly leave and forget all about it. But, like last year, we did did a Batman show. We had everyone from little kids to adults asking if we were doing it again. they absolutely loved it. but this year we changed because if we did it again then noone would listen because theyve heard it before. Another example was The Marine Band at MCRD in San Deigo CA. They Marched out to a perfect Cadence and played a perfect march, but then, they pyut the massive bass drum and the rest of the percusion equitment togather to form a drum set and played Jazz. It was awsome.
I also think that we need to make our concerts 'kid friendly'. ya know throw in something that everyone knows and not just he senior citizens. i mean, lets face it what average teenager toaday is gonna wanna go to a concert hall for a couple hours and listen to Bach and Beethoven (which im a great admirer) rather than i dunno...Play videos games or listen to there music?? i think we need to bring there music to them. not so much as start trying to impersonae synth strings from a rap song, but throw in some stuff they may like. Cause to most kids bach and beethoven are boreing. they dont see the beauty in a Violin solo of a rageing passage full of percussion and low brass. They just see a bunch of people makeing noise. So, to some it all up, i say, We need to make the right noise.

[tubiker]

And across the pond............

We had a Classical Music radio station hit the airwaves perhaps 15 years back - Classicfm has had a major impact on music listening and concert attendance in the UK as the station has matured. Its brought a new generation of people to serious music who didn't have a clue and who thought that the whole repertoire was so highbrow you couldn't get into it.
They also got into campaigning for musical issues that were becoming a cause for concern - kids (and their parents)over here were voting with their feet and not taking up lessons on a whole pile of instruments which have become shortage instruments - oboe, basson, double bass, french horn and would you believe it EUPHONIUM and TUBA !!!!!
The result has been funding for instruments which have been classed as "endangered species"

You can listen online, goto

http://www.classicfm.co.uk/

They still have a tendancy to make me puke - when they have popped out Nessun Dorma for the 12th time that week, and the competitions nuff said

Andrew M

[Rick Denney]

You don't have to wear a tux, Donn, although I have worn mine to a couple of the opening galas. As a college student, I wore jeans and tshirts to concerts. As an adult, sport coat and tie, but that isn't really necessary. I just like to dress up once in a while. In fact, the Sunday matinees are informal. The orchestra wears a dark suit and tie instead of a tux/black dress.

It's not the dress code for the audience, though that's part of it. If a 30-something shows up dressed informally in most cities, they'll feel out of place. That will not endear them to the experience.

And the reason they'll feel out of place is only partly because of the other patrons. It's mostly because of the orchestra. Dark suits are not informal. By today's standards, they are quite formal and are reserved only for job interviews and funerals. Tuxes are probably thought to be less formal. They would do better to have matinee concerts dressed in dockers and button-downs. They might even smile a bit, once in a while.

Then, the audience will also feel more comfortable dressed casually.

Most orchestras play at least three concerts in a series, and you could designate one as the formal concert and the others as informal. Then, those who go to the symphony just to show off their tux can do so.

And the notion that the music director never speaks is probably one we have to give up. People love to learn (evidenced by the popularity of the Discovery Channel, etc.) and I can't see the harm in a little Maestro or announcer ad-lib to provide a bit of context. We try to do the same thing with program notes, but it's so formal.

I've turned around on this one over the years. I used to be all for the traditions of concert performance. But I've seen the difference in my own performance and teaching experience when there is a bit more interaction between the audience and the performers.

For example, if the Maestro joins the audience in a bit of laughing about the wierdness of, say, Lutoslawski, the audience will be a bit more open-minded about it. They won't think they are being laughed at by the Maestro, on the basis of him being so serious about something they just don't get at all.

For the life of me, I don't get why the disdain for movie music in classical circles. Composers of the past would be at a loss to explain it, and most of them freely composed for the entertainment performances of their day, including such as ballet. If Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite can be on a classical concert, then why not Broughton's Silverado? We do it for some, such as Gershwin's American in Paris and Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky. Is Gershwin that much better than Broughton? (I'll give you the Prokofiev, heh, heh.) It makes no sense, and it closes a door to a ready-made passageway between orchestral performance and popular experience.

I don't know if unloading the arrogance of concert performance traditions will turn things around, but I can't see how it would hurt.

Rick "who doesn't go to concerts any more, because of the trek required to the inner city" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

For the life of me, I don't get why the disdain for movie music in classical circles. Composers of the past would be at a loss to explain it, and most of them freely composed for the entertainment performances of their day, including such as ballet. If Grofe's Grand Canyon Suite can be on a classical concert, then why not Broughton's Silverado? We do it for some, such as Gershwin's American in Paris and Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky. Is Gershwin that much better than Broughton? (I'll give you the Prokofiev, heh, heh.) It makes no sense, and it closes a door to a ready-made passageway between orchestral performance and popular experience.

I have an idea for Rick: have your orchestra perform Bernstein's "On the Waterfront" prefaced by the conductor doing a Marlon Brando impression.

[Donn]

This is totally an opinion so if i offend someone do tell and ill be quiet.

Well, I have to say, it's a little hard on the eyes. You're welcome to your opinion, though I'm about to disagree with it, but I actually didn't read and comprehend more than about 75% of it because I was too lazy to puzzle out the spelling and punctuation. ``ill be quiet'', he says. Even bloke, with unconditional approval from his reliable faction, puts a lot of thought into the distinction between "affect" and "effect", so you might just strive a wee bit harder here if you hope to fully communicate your thoughts.

For instance, if an orchastra put on a big concert, i think the audiance would like it if right after you played Bach, you had some people in the orchastra preform in a Jazz ensemble....To "keep the audiance awake".

Sports analogy! I think many will agree that the slow pace of baseball is a tough sell for today's entertainment-oriented viewer, so why not have the players switch to hockey or basketball between innings, to liven things up! Here's why: the crowd came to see major league baseball, not baseball players playing struggling to play high-school level basketball. If it gets to that point, baseball is cooked.

It's a grey area, though, I'll admit. Music is music, and an excessively academic, purist approach is as deadly to jazz as classical. Much more energy at the borders, it seems. But that's not about bringing together different types of music as a collection of specimens, it's a more time-consuming and unpredictable process.

[AndyL]

I don't know if unloading the arrogance of concert performance traditions will turn things around, but I can't see how it would hurt.

My observation from a few years experience playing in four community bands is that the most formal ("tux look"), polished group attracts the smallest audience. And not by just a little bit. The audience for the least formal group is typically larger at one concert than the most formal group attracts over an entire year combined.

An experienced band conductor told me once that anything perceived as "highbrow" is a turnoff to today's audiences.

[Chuck(G)]

We had a Classical Music radio station hit the airwaves perhaps 15 years back - Classicfm has had a major impact on music listening and concert attendance in the UK as the station has matured. Its brought a new generation of people to serious music who didn't have a clue and who thought that the whole repertoire was so highbrow you couldn't get into it.

Yes, but Classic FM is tons better than most of the stuff on Beeb Radio 3. I put in more time listening to Radio 2 just for its varied program content.

Another very good resource is Australian Radio's ABC Classic, particularly the "Keys to Music" program with Graham Abbott. Not just spinning discs, but often live sessions with the Adelaide SO, having the musicians demonstrate how works are put together.

I really miss Leonard Bernstein and his Young People's Concerts. (Remember the one where he introduced a young tuba player by the name of Floyd Cooley?).

My comment, Wade, about hip-hop was only half in jest. People will go to hear the music they can relate to. Unfortunately, the thought seems to be that a bunch of dead 19th century European males don't have a lot to say to them.

[Donn]

Gubmunt kollich composers (and their students who are trained to echo their sentiments) are the main group who fain disdain as a way to cloak their jealousy.

That's the rebuttal from "Kenny G" fans, when saxophonists put him down. "Yer just jealous!"

Or, it could be, his music comes across as vapid and cheesy, if your background has prepared you for something a little more rigorous. It's an easy shot: no one makes as much money as Kenny, so clearly it's just bitter envy speaking.

[Rick Denney]

Or, it could be, his music comes across as vapid and cheesy, if your background has prepared you for something a little more rigorous. It's an easy shot: no one makes as much money as Kenny, so clearly it's just bitter envy speaking.

It seems to me that there's a middle ground between the academic avant garde and Kenny G.

And it's possible to be avant garde and not disdain the audience. Years ago, Ray Grim and I attended a recital in Texas by Jay Rozen. I haven't heard Jay perform in a very long time, but I suspect he's as involved in the avant-garde stuff now as he was then. But he never took it (or anything else) too seriously. And his performances were fun and entertaining, even when the music was completely "out there". The main difference is that he didn't forget how important it was to communicate with his audience.

Melvyn Poore is another example.

One of the most exciting and powerful concerts I've ever attended was a Phillip Glass performance in a small auditorium at Southwestern University in Georgetown, Texas. I mention the location to emphasize that we were about as far from New York as it gets. I was dragged there by a friend, and spent the first little while convinced I would be assaulted by this avant-garde stuff, but I left a cheering fan. Even Glass, that most hip of avant-gardists, communicated with the audience positively and smiled in pleasure when people enjoyed what he said and performed.

It's the avant-garde snobs who I think do orchestral music performance no good. They assume that if an audience of regular people actually like the music, that it must not be avant -garde enough. Often, the performing musicians are worse about it than the composers, who are often not present.

If a composer is going to thumb his nose at his audiences and benefactors, the music better elevate them right out of their chairs. Wagner could pull it off, but most of the new avant-garde don't quite have those chops.

Rick "not opposed to modern music, but opposed to musical snobbery" Denney

[TubaSteve]

To reinforce some of the statements that have been offered here, I play in several groups.
One is a local "Pop's" band that plays outdoor concerts and on occasion we will play a concert indoors. (We played indoors last week, and the audience was on their feet at least 6 times that night) We play music that people like to hear. We play a lot of movie scores, classic marches, pop and rock arrangements, patriotic songs. The bottom line, we pack the crouds in. We have hundreds in attendance every night and it is often standing room only on the sides of the hill. Of course lots of our stand by crowd have grey hair, but we get younger ones also. We have continued to have large audiances for the 14 years I have been with them.
Another group that I am in is a community band at a local university. We play the esoteric off beat, opus garbage that lasts forever, has no melody, and is sometimes such a bore that I can't imagine anyone attending unless they have a family member in the band. As you can imagine, most of the audience is just that, family members of the band who put up with the noise to support their family member. Every once and a while, we do have some nice part, but then we will usually spend all of our rehearsal time on the esoteric chart and ignore the charts that may actually have some appeal to both the band or those in the seats. We may run through it once before we tune...... There is a lot of great music out there, it's too bad that we don't play it more. That is why I love the pops band, it is just fun music making, and that's what it is all about anyway.

Steve

[Chuck(G)]

My comment, Wade, about hip-hop was only half in jest.

You talking to me? I did not comment in this thread save for my passing on a quote by Ralph Kramden.

My mistake for trusting my memory. Sorry.

It was Ray who threatened me with entrail-spilling.

[andrew the tuba player]

The audience is there, not for education or an intellectual exercise, but for ENTERTAINMENT. Doc

Exactly my point. But, you have to entertain the audiance you want to atract. If you want to atract a younger croud you've got to be prepared to entertain them or you'll lose them. Yes, there are some younger people who enjoy Beethoven and Bach (such as myself), but to speak a spoken point, what normal teenager would rather go see a Beethoven concert than stay at home and play video games? Now, if you had a concert that had some Beethoven and some Jazz then, they may come just for the jazz. Then, they can figure out for themselves how cool classical is.

Sports analogy! I think many will agree that the slow pace of baseball is a tough sell for today's entertainment-oriented viewer, so why not have the players switch to hockey or basketball between innings, to liven things up! Here's why: the crowd came to see major league baseball, not baseball players playing struggling to play high-school level basketball. If it gets to that point, baseball is cooked.

Music and sports are totally different. That would be like compairing cars and plains. The basic need of transportation is the same, but a plane flys and a car drives.like the basic need of sports and music are to entertain. But they are completely different..People (or at least I) go to concerts to hear good music. I don't go just to hear Classical. If you put a Jazz concert at the same time as a Classical Concert then I'd probably choose jazz. But, if you combined them then It'd be much better. I'd love to go to a concert that had both 'Beethovens 5th' and 'Sing Sing Sing' on the program.
Just a little advise, you may consider listening to the audience of which you'd like to attract (young people). I'm just trying to give you my point of view as a teenager. If we could get Teens to go to our concerts then I'm pretty sure that our audiances would be considerabley larger.

[Rick Denney]

If we could get Teens to go to our concerts then I'm pretty sure that our audiances would be considerabley larger.

This goes too far. We frankly don't need teens. But we do need grownups.

For example, the hobby (definitely NOT "sport") of golf is in no danger of decline, but it attracts older folks who have the wherewithal to pursue golf as a hobby. Motorhomes are in no danger of decline (even with higher gas prices) and they definitely do not appeal to teens and twenty-somethings.

Thus, I don't think it's necessary to appeal to a young audience to remain vibrant. But I do think it's necessary to appeal to grownups, and grownups have changed in important ways in the last 20 years. But orchestral performance practice has not.

We DO NOT need hip-hop in the concert hall. In fact, we don't need orchestral arrangements of non-orchestral music in the concert hall. That would violate the medium--like asking a photograph to look like a painting or a painting to look like a photograph. It might be technically possible but it undermines the expression.

Let orchestral music be true to itself, and performers committed to its enjoyment, and then it will be true to and enjoyed by audiences. That's part of the problem with much modern music--it is not really true to the musical medium of orchestras. The instruments were made to resonate, not to produce unresonant sounds. And that's part of the problem with its presentation--it's not presented for enjoyment, but in the overly serious search of perfection and mere beauty. I'll take joy any day.

Rick "who thinks an orchestra playing hip-hop would sound silly and would be perceived as patronizing" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Let orchestral music be true to itself, and performers committed to its enjoyment, and then it will be true to and enjoyed by audiences. That's part of the problem with much modern music--it is not really true to the musical medium of orchestras. The instruments were made to resonate, not to produce unresonant sounds. And that's part of the problem with its presentation--it's not presented for enjoyment, but in the overly serious search of perfection and mere beauty. I'll take joy any day.

Nice sentiments, but if that's really going to be the case, then someone had better cough up two pennies to cover the eyes of professional symphony orchestra music.

How many major labels are selling new recordings of classical music? Two? And one of those seems to specialize in crossover music, while the other puts out recordings of predominantly Eastern European (i.e. non-union) orchestras, albeit those recordings are quite good.

Canary in the coal mine, I think.

If live orchestral music turns out to be the province of a few cognoscenti and people who "want to be seen", it's not enough to support more than a very small handful of professional performing groups.

Happily, amateur groups will always be with us, it appears.

[Rick Denney]

How many major labels are selling new recordings of classical music? Two? And one of those seems to specialize in crossover music, while the other puts out recordings of predominantly Eastern European (i.e. non-union) orchestras, albeit those recordings are quite good.

Canary in the coal mine, I think.

If live orchestral music turns out to be the province of a few cognoscenti and people who "want to be seen", it's not enough to support more than a very small handful of professional performing groups.

Happily, amateur groups will always be with us, it appears.

Physical music recordings in general are in decline, not just orchestral music. MP3 are different, of course. But all their delivery systems are aimed at short subjects.

On the other hand, movie DVD's still sell pretty well. And many of those DVD's have spectacular orchestral music on them.

I do not equate "cognoscenti" with "grownups", by the way.

As I said previously, I don't know if the changes I suggest will work, but I know where the current straight line is pointing. And I think that's your point.

A question occurs to me: Europe seems to do all the things most often suggested as the cure for the decline of orchestral music here. They have much more extensive music education in schools, their orchestras are supported by their governments at much higher levels, and they just plain have more of them. They have a much deeper tradition of orchestral performance, and a closer connection to their heritage.

If all that is true, then why are the European record labels also abandoning classical music (if indeed they are)? Deutsche Grammophon, Angel (EMI), Teldec (which was the combination of Telefunken and was it Decca?), and many others were always based in Europe and focused on European orchestras. Are they still thriving? If not, then doesn't that indicate that physical recorded music in general is in decline?

How is concert attendance in Europe? Is it the same as described here?

Rick "thinking Chuck's canary may be in the wrong mine" Denney

[andrew the tuba player]

[quote="Rick Denney"]Motorhomes are in no danger of decline (even with higher gas prices) and they definitely do not appeal to teens and twenty-somethings.
What? I love the older massive winabagos. I like motorhomes...
so what if im a weird teenager

[andrew the tuba player]

[
We DO NOT need hip-hop in the concert hall.

Now that is true. We don't need hip hop. oops. i wasnt ready to end that one

This goes too far. We frankly don't need teens. But we do need grownups.

This is true, but if we can atract teens now, then in the future we can have them n our audiances as adults. Plus, I think It'd be good if we did have teens there. My peers do not appreaciate classical music or its beauty. I think that if we good get to them then they would start to figure out how good it is. Then, we could have a larger audiance.

[Chuck(G)]

I do not equate "cognoscenti" with "grownups", by the way.

No, but "cognoscenti" does convey the impression that a group has a special sort of knowledge or appreciation:

cognoscente \kon-yuh-SHEN-tee; kog-nuh-; -SEN-\, noun; plural cognoscenti \-tee\:
A person with special knowledge of a subject; a connoisseur.

Most non-musical grownups that I know wouldn't know a bassoon from a basin.

They have a much deeper tradition of orchestral performance, and a closer connection to their heritage.

Uh, yeah. But Europe is changing--and it's difficult to say what "heritage" will mean in 50 years.

If all that is true, then why are the European record labels also abandoning classical music (if indeed they are)? Deutsche Grammophon, Angel (EMI), Teldec (which was the combination of Telefunken and was it Decca?), and many others were always based in Europe and focused on European orchestras. Are they still thriving? If not, then doesn't that indicate that physical recorded music in general is in decline?

There's no money in classical recording. A CD that sells a thousand copies is a hit. Much of the stuff I'm seeing now by the old-line labels is reissues.

I can't say for certain if classical music is dying out in continental Europe, but the UK classical music scene is declining.

I suspect there's a reason behind much of this that hasn't been trotted out for a salute.

Around here, most orchestra concerts are given on weeknights. Who has time to go to a concert on a Thursday (or Tuesday...) night any more? People are working longer hours nowadays with more crowded schedules.

I wonder if symphony concerts would fare better in the US if they were moved to the weekend exclusively? Sunday afternoon would be a great time for a concert.

It's a rare Thursday evening that I don't have some other commitment.

Another factor is that music is now the aural wall paint for our society. Movie music is just that--it enhances the experience by providing the right room lighting. But in general, we swim through a sea of music, in elevators, supermarkets, on telephone hold, in commercials, etc. etc. etc.

It's part of the landscape and just not that special any more.