Anyway, why hasn't someone invented a brass instrument system where, when you press down a valve, you raise the pitch of the note? Should be easy enough - just turn the valves backwards or upside down or something!! There - problem solved. (Should I patent this idea?)
Playing in sharp keys
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Geotuba
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Playing in sharp keys
OK - we all know that with any brass instrument it seems to be easier to play in flat keys than sharp keys. My theory about this has always been that it has something to do with the fact that the valves lower the pitch of the note when you press them. This is in direct contrast to a string instrument where, when you plonk your finger down it raises the pitch of the note - which is why violinists seem to be qute happy playing in F# major while we need to write the parts out again in Gb so we can play them easily!!
Anyway, why hasn't someone invented a brass instrument system where, when you press down a valve, you raise the pitch of the note? Should be easy enough - just turn the valves backwards or upside down or something!! There - problem solved. (Should I patent this idea?)
Anyway, why hasn't someone invented a brass instrument system where, when you press down a valve, you raise the pitch of the note? Should be easy enough - just turn the valves backwards or upside down or something!! There - problem solved. (Should I patent this idea?)
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Geotuba
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Re: Playing in sharp keys
Interesting - I didn't know that...the elephant wrote:...ascending rotary valves are available on some French horns.
P.S. I couldn't find the tongue in cheek emoticon when I originally posted
- Chuck(G)
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I'll pass over your initial comments without any comment of my own and leave that to others.
As far as ascending pitch valves--it's been done--and isn't done anymore for seemingly good reasons. One can still occasionally find antique French (french) horns with at least one ascending valve.
To illustrate why this is a lousy idea, let's consider a 3-valve horn. For each valve to have an ascending pitch, the corresponding valve must normally (that is, in its undepressed mode) direct the sound column through additional tubing, then remove that tubing
Unfortunately, most instruments play their worst with all of the valve tubing engaged. (e.g. 123 never plays as well as "open" on a normal instrument). This is because the added branches are more contorted than straight tubing and so "stuffier" acoustically.
Why not just learn to finger a normal instrument?
As far as ascending pitch valves--it's been done--and isn't done anymore for seemingly good reasons. One can still occasionally find antique French (french) horns with at least one ascending valve.
To illustrate why this is a lousy idea, let's consider a 3-valve horn. For each valve to have an ascending pitch, the corresponding valve must normally (that is, in its undepressed mode) direct the sound column through additional tubing, then remove that tubing
Unfortunately, most instruments play their worst with all of the valve tubing engaged. (e.g. 123 never plays as well as "open" on a normal instrument). This is because the added branches are more contorted than straight tubing and so "stuffier" acoustically.
Why not just learn to finger a normal instrument?
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I believe that Sam Green owned a Walter Sear BBb to which he added an ascending half-step valve. As I understand it, the sole reason for this was that there was absolutely no way to play a B-natural in tune on that instrument otherwise. Sam joked that the half-step ascender was a good "Verdi" valve.
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I don't think flat keys are necessarily easier than sharp keys, but they produce easier fingering patterns on BBb and Eb tubas.
Sharp keys are no doubt easier on F and CC tubas.
I have no trouble with the sharps playing my CC in the orchestra, but hate lots of flats when I play on my CC in bands. For example in a piece I am currently playing, Db to Eb below the staff is not easy fast on a CC using 2+4 to 2+3, but on my Eb it is just 1 to 0 - easy!
The reverse would be the case with a sharp key on the Eb.
Sharp keys are no doubt easier on F and CC tubas.
I have no trouble with the sharps playing my CC in the orchestra, but hate lots of flats when I play on my CC in bands. For example in a piece I am currently playing, Db to Eb below the staff is not easy fast on a CC using 2+4 to 2+3, but on my Eb it is just 1 to 0 - easy!
The reverse would be the case with a sharp key on the Eb.
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Ascending valves are common, even today. Yamaha makes a trombone with a slide and ascending Bb-C valve so that trombonists don't have so far to reach for 7th position.
The three valve system with two valves descending and one valve ascending was known as the "French" system.
The three valve system with two valves descending and one valve ascending was known as the "French" system.
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
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it'd be interesting to see someone experiment with this. I'm refering to the familiarity part of keys.
What if a band director (or series of band directors to cover the beginner and junior high ages) were to specifically use lots of sharps? Instead of teaching students using C major, why not use C# major. It'd be more difficult for them, and there are obvious reasons why C major is easier for a beginner student than C# major, but putting those aside, does anyone thing an exposure to all of those sharps would produce a more able musician (as far as key comfort)?
Or would we just have the opposite? Students who can play C# major any day, in their sleep, with one foot, at quarter note = 200, but who fumble all over an F major scale?
What if a band director (or series of band directors to cover the beginner and junior high ages) were to specifically use lots of sharps? Instead of teaching students using C major, why not use C# major. It'd be more difficult for them, and there are obvious reasons why C major is easier for a beginner student than C# major, but putting those aside, does anyone thing an exposure to all of those sharps would produce a more able musician (as far as key comfort)?
Or would we just have the opposite? Students who can play C# major any day, in their sleep, with one foot, at quarter note = 200, but who fumble all over an F major scale?
Colby Fahrenbacher
Principal Tuba, Danville Symphony Orchestra
Associate Tuba, Civic Orchestra of Chicago
Principal Tuba, Danville Symphony Orchestra
Associate Tuba, Civic Orchestra of Chicago
- windshieldbug
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The really interesting thing to consider is that the "even tempered" system only exists because of the 12 note keyboard.
The harmonic series is NOT even tempered.
Being able to read sharp keys under our current notation and being able to perform this music properly (in ANY key or ANY temprement) are two different issues...
The harmonic series is NOT even tempered.
Being able to read sharp keys under our current notation and being able to perform this music properly (in ANY key or ANY temprement) are two different issues...
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
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The problem with three-valve instruments is what Don Stauffer called the valve swindle.Bob1062 wrote:I always wondered why low B and E on my 3 valve euph were so SHARP (ESPECIALLY the E). I didn't start pulling slides until I started playing bass trombone at about age 23. I learned more in teaching myself, playing next to good players, and 3 short lessons than I did in 6 years of school band.
The first valve on a Bb tuba is long enough to lower a Bb bugle a whole tone. The second valve is long enough to lower a Bb bugle a semitone. And the third valve is long enough to lower the Bb bugle three semitones. When you hold down the third valve, you now have a G bugle. That first valve that was long enough to lower a Bb bugle two semitones isn't long enough to lower a G bugle two semitones, and thus the 1-3 combination comes out sharp. The 1-2-3 combination is nearly a quarter-tone sharp.
Thus, sharp keys that use B, C, low F, and low E quite a lot are difficult to play in tune without major slide manipulation. And slide manipulation is often physically impossible on three-valve tubas, especially in the hands of youngsters. Trumpet players solve the problem with easily manipulable first and third valve slides that even beginners are taught to use.
By providing a fourth valve, the problem with C and F are solved and the problems with B and E are minimized. There are still problems lower than that, but that's a separate issue and not usually one for beginners to solve.
I suspect the tradition of using flat keys for band is to provide as many opportunities as possible for as many musicians as possible to use the open and first-valve fingerings if the instrument, and to minimize the 1-3 and 1-2-3 combinations as much as possible. The resulting tradition lives on.
Even in flat keys, many Bb instruments have intonation difficulties, so playing in tune even in flat keys is a problem at all levels.
When I first learned F tuba, I had trouble with more than three flats. I was quite new to the F tuba when I found myself sight-reading Entrance March of the Gladiators, with its runs, in five flats, at a gig...speaking of hell-raising.
But one sharp is no picnic on an F tuba!
Rick "who doesn't practice sharp keys enough" Denney
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I suspect that band music uses flat keys because it does. To be sure, it makes reading for Eb and Bb TC transposing instruments easier to read.
But the whole business about flat keys being easier to play in is a nonstarter. Riddle me this: Which key is easier to play in, Gb major or F# major, Cb major or B major, Ab minor or A# minor, D# minor or Eb minor? Yet, I've seen people stumble in F# major where they have no problem in Gb major. Practice is the key there.
But the whole business about flat keys being easier to play in is a nonstarter. Riddle me this: Which key is easier to play in, Gb major or F# major, Cb major or B major, Ab minor or A# minor, D# minor or Eb minor? Yet, I've seen people stumble in F# major where they have no problem in Gb major. Practice is the key there.
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Sharp Keys
For several years, in the Cajon Valley School District, in Southern California, all instrumental music was taught in one class. Violins, Violas, Celli, Bassi were thrown in with clarinets, saxes, French horns, trumpets, trombones, tubas and, God forbid, percussion. The result was students of wind instruments who could play in sharp keys as well as in flat keys and string players who could handle flat keys as well as sharp keys. It is mostly training, it would appear from this.
For BBb tubas, D should be a fairly easy key to play in as G should be easy for Eb tubas. In both cases, you change only two valves (1 and 3) for most of the notes; 2 is always down. It is a manner of training.
The question I had, all the while I taught, was whether there is transfer of skill from practicing scale and arpeggio patterns then trying to apply these skills to musical compositions. I was never sure it was happening for most students and, when it appeared to happen to the few, I could as easily have attributed it to their intelligence and ability to transfer most things from one situation to another. I taught most of my students to make short études out of difficult passages from musical compositions so they could get practice at difficult patterns. I still practice this way today, but not so much as I used to since I run into fewer new pieces (I am 67; have been playing tuba for 59 years). I wish it were simple and a simple statement would cover the answer. Alas, we approximate and go on.
For BBb tubas, D should be a fairly easy key to play in as G should be easy for Eb tubas. In both cases, you change only two valves (1 and 3) for most of the notes; 2 is always down. It is a manner of training.
The question I had, all the while I taught, was whether there is transfer of skill from practicing scale and arpeggio patterns then trying to apply these skills to musical compositions. I was never sure it was happening for most students and, when it appeared to happen to the few, I could as easily have attributed it to their intelligence and ability to transfer most things from one situation to another. I taught most of my students to make short études out of difficult passages from musical compositions so they could get practice at difficult patterns. I still practice this way today, but not so much as I used to since I run into fewer new pieces (I am 67; have been playing tuba for 59 years). I wish it were simple and a simple statement would cover the answer. Alas, we approximate and go on.
Always make a good sound; audiences will forget if you miss a note but making a good sound will get you the next job.
- windshieldbug
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I'll agree and disagree (how do you like that for taking a stand?)
I'll agree in that I don't think that anywhere near enough air is moving THROUGH the horn to make much of a difference, and using valves DOES change the conical/cylindrical % significantly.
What I also suspect, though, is that the tight, convoluted passages through the valves themselves (piston) and every small radius turn that they make in the valve section (piston & rotary) complicates the setting up of the resulting standing wave through the horn, and the difficulty that one has in making and maintaining such a wave change is often perceived to be "stuffiness".

I'll agree in that I don't think that anywhere near enough air is moving THROUGH the horn to make much of a difference, and using valves DOES change the conical/cylindrical % significantly.
What I also suspect, though, is that the tight, convoluted passages through the valves themselves (piston) and every small radius turn that they make in the valve section (piston & rotary) complicates the setting up of the resulting standing wave through the horn, and the difficulty that one has in making and maintaining such a wave change is often perceived to be "stuffiness".
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
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Bob, that is not "that caveman". That's the famous Captain Caaaaaaaaaaave Maaaaaaannnnnn!!!There's gotta be a little of him in all really good tuba blowers....
Pensacola Symphony
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Yamaha yfb621 with 16’’ bell,with blokepiece symphony
Eastman 6/4 with blokepiece symphony/profundo
Troy University-adjunct tuba instructor
Yamaha yfb621 with 16’’ bell,with blokepiece symphony
Eastman 6/4 with blokepiece symphony/profundo
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I wish I could figure out what was being objected to. "Stuffiness" to me has nothing to do (as I've observed many times before) with fluid dynamics, but rather the loss of resonance due to the lowering of the Q of the resonating column.windshieldbug wrote:What I also suspect, though, is that the tight, convoluted passages through the valves themselves (piston) and every small radius turn that they make in the valve section (piston & rotary) complicates the setting up of the resulting standing wave through the horn, and the difficulty that one has in making and maintaining such a wave change is often perceived to be "stuffiness".
Tight little turns tend to do that to sound. I suspect it's a combination of interference by reflection and (maybe--but don't quote me on this.) the difference in the path length between the inside and outside of a bend.
Were this not the case, flutists could play nice compact little instruments that have been coiled up nice and tight and your tuba could be wrapped tightly enough to be the size of a wastebasket (and probably function as one). And you could put the works of a French horn into a nice tight little soda-bottle sized package with a bell attached.
If you want the math, I'm pretty sure that I can turn it up.
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I'm not saying "out of round" at all, and your example of the helicon/sousaphone is a good way of showing that it is not a good, wide bend at all, either.goodgigs wrote:Mike (K) I'm not buying it! Yes though the valves (rotors) because the cross section gets out of round at several points in most designs but not the carefully bent knuckles unless they're dented. If you couldn't get a standing wave to follow a bending path a sousaphone wouldn't work.
Maybe I'll start a new post about this when Rick Denny is aboard so I can get the "resident genius's" take on this.
You know this might also answer My nagging question about "crushed tube" type short action valves (Allen valves and the like).
Ponder all the severally dented horns that play quite well?
I have no idea how how this stuff works. I designed the taper of all four of My horns purely by intuition.
What I am saying is that every sharp bend GIVES THE OPPORTUNITY FOR A PLACE that may make it difficult to establish the wave. Not has to, but the opportunity to cause problems. Having enough bends in close succession seems to pretty much ensure that there WILL be a problem.
You also know that I'm of the opinion that the shape of the diameter of the tube doesn't matter; Allen valves and Conn short action valves (among others) worked just fine.
Also, and oddly, the higher the frequency of the wave, the less susceptible to issues they seem to be, therefore cornets, etc. seem to be less affected.
Or maybe trumpeters just notice less...
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
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Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Give the man a ceeegar (again).Chuck(G) wrote:I wish I could figure out what was being objected to. "Stuffiness" to me has nothing to do (as I've observed many times before) with fluid dynamics, but rather the loss of resonance due to the lowering of the Q of the resonating column.
Stuffiness is a lack of resonance, not flow.
(Tom, you don't have to read this if you don't want to.)
There is a balance, however, between resistance and resonance. In electrical parlance, impedance is the sum of resistance and reactance. Reactance is a description of the resonance and total reactance should be low or zero when the tuba resonates well. That leaves only resistance. In circuits, we add resistance to a resonant circuit specifically to lower the resonance quality, or Q. If the Q is too high, the resonance is too narrowbanded and it's also hard to tune it or damp it when needed. Thus, a tuba described as stiff or slotty might be suffering from a bit too much Q. Those tubas are often easier to play with a mouthpiece that has a fat throat, because that lowers the Q.
When I do lip exercises, I find the open instrument more difficult than when I add a few valves, but when I add all the valves, it's more difficult than the open instrument. I first benefit from a little extra resistance because it reduces the grab of the slots in the partial series, but then the resistance overwhelms the impedance and causes too much loss of Q and the result is just fuzz. That's the way it seems to me, anyway.
It may be a function of path length as much as anything. With all the valves down, the path length nearly doubles and the pulse and its reinforcing return reflection (which is what makes it resonant) face more impedance. This is probably what Brian is thinking.
And Chuck is opening whole new vistas of thought with the notion of path length around corners. They aren't original with him, of course, and I've seen several experiments using hard right-angle turns instead of gentle curves that apparently worked reasonably well. When the pressure front reaches a turn, the inside edge of the front gets a bit ahead of the outside edge. If it gets too far, it will damp the resonance altogether. The bigger the curve's radius, the smaller the error with respect to the over length of the path, but I suspect that this accounts for several things that we know from experience: Sousaphones are different than tubas; short, wide tubas are different than tall, narrow tubas; and compensating valves on long instruments (e.g. BBb tubas) tend to add stuffiness.
I think one reason big tubas have their characteristic sound in a concert hall is because of path length. The wide bell and throat of grand orchestral tubas causes all sorts of multipath error, which tends to smooth out the noise in the sound and give it depth. So bending paths may be an advantage or a disadvantage in any particular situation. That's why tuba design involves so much experimentation and empirical adjustment.
The cross-section of the tube isn't a big issue in my mind, as long as the pressure fronts that make up sound aren't smacking into blockages that will reflect them significantly. I've never been able to duplicate the experience some report that a small dent in a large bow changed intonation noticeably. Maybe I'm just not skilled enough to notice (likely).
The point of taper design is to adjust the mix of harmonics that resonate or are damped. That mix of harmonics is what makes the characteristic tuba sound. And that mix of harmonics can also affect the intonation by adding and subtracting normally in-turn or out-of-tune harmonics (with respect to equal temperament, of course). If the ratio of straight to tapered tubing had a really large effect, an F tuba with five or six valves would not be possible.
But it is true that all that extra tubing adds resistance and lowers Q (resonance), either because of twists and turns as Chuck suggests or because of extra length, which I suspect underlies Brian's perspective, or, most likely, both.
Rick "always ready to confuse the issue" Denney
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Mark
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