4/4 Tubas in Orchestras

[Eric B]

Does anybody know of pros using a 4/4 tuba for the bulk of their performances in orchestra?

What horn did Roger Bobo use most of the time in the LA Phil?

I can't afford two big CC tubas. I might consider a 5/4 horn later on (a 4/4 Rudy-Meinl), a Miraphone 188 or a larger 4/4 (Miraphone 1292). I have had no complaints from the conductor and the concertmaster says the brass balance sounds great from where he sits. I play the venerable Miraphone 186. The only complaint I get is from the community band director. Ironically, I usually put out too much sound for his taste.

[pwhitaker]

That's not too surprising. The German tubas are more focused and seem (to me) to cut through better than do the Kings, Conns and Yamahas. I have to back off my 1291 BBb with the Trad Jazz bands because it comes through louder than did the sousaphone I previously played. I use a 186 recording bass outdoors and I never have to push hard (<= mf, usually ~ p) with that one.
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[Alex C]

I don't think you need much more sound than a 186 can produce in a local orchestra.

It doesn't matter what Bobo played, he could destroy a concert hall on any instrument he happened to be using. The LA Phil recording of Rite of Spring is astoundingly present and he was playing the small Mirafone F that he used on his first solo album (so I'm told).

If you were playing in any of the top 10-12 American orchestras, you would have to consider a larger tuba. As one tubist said to me, "this orchestra requires you to make a lot of racket on brass instruments."

The 186 is a versatile instrument and should suit your purpose well. However, if you've got the itch you'll have to scratch it sooner or later.

[Eric B]

However, if you've got the itch you'll have to scratch it sooner or later.

Isn't that the truth?

I may or may not trade my 186. That remains to be seen. My priorities now are purchasing an intermediate level Euphonium for church solos, an F (Cerveny 653?).

I had a long time dream of playing in an orchestra. I was a band director for 8 years and have been a music minister for 10. When I settled in Texarkana, I thought that dream was dead. A year ago our conductor, Marc-Andre Bougie, founded the Texarkana Symphony Orchestra. I'm having the time of my life. We only present 4 concerts a year, but it is cool that I'm getting to do what I enjoy and am still able to have a "normal" family life and regular employment. Money I make from singing at funerals and playing in the symphony goes into my instrument account. It grows slowly, but eventually I have to spend it on something

[bill]

I play in one symphony much like yours. I use a Willson 3400 97% of the time with no problems, at all. The other times I have used a Conn 5J. No one has ever complained. It works, if you know what you are doing.

[Eric B]

The only thing that I am missing is having a 5th valve. When I bought my 4V CC I just needed it for Tuba Christmas and for educational purposes. I could have used the 5th for the Ride of the Valkyries on our inaugeral concert.

Instead of an upgrade to a larger CC, I might consider some "tweeks" as a better use of my money. Several TubeNet repair gurus have offered their services. Have any of you made alterations to your 186 with pleasant results? Any recommendations would be appreciated (especially from the repair guys):

1. Larger leadpipe (188 leadpipe perhaps)
2. Addition of a 5th valve (approx. $1,200 project)
3. Different mouthpiece...I'm using a PT-48 now.
4. _________________ you can fill in the blank.
5. I'll beat you to this one.>>>Spend less time discussing things on TubeNet and more time in the woodshed

[jonesbrass]

A four-valve 186 CC is a very nice instrument, you can do just about everything on it. Trade it in on a 188 if you like the Miraphone thing. Slightly larger bell throat, different leadpipe, and a fifth valve. Woo-hoo! Sounds just like your modification list, plus you won't have to worry about the results of modifying your 186 (cue "pimp my tuba" background music).

And I definitely think the addition of an F is a good thing.

[windshieldbug]

My recommendation would be to decide if your sound needs to be "bigger", or have "more presence".

If the latter, your horn is probably already "big" enough. If what you want to do is distinguish it from a buzz-saw bass trombone, and if you go the "bigger" route, a 6/4 horn is likely where where you're headed, and THAT may not be enough to envelope the brass. Remember that bass tones carry a LOT less than treble.

If it's presence you need, try going the mouthpiece route. Tubas being bigger horns to begin with, my experience is that mouthpipes do not make anywhere NEAR the difference that they do when they are a MUCH huger percentage of the horn, like on a trumpet.

I'd be much more likely to get an F or Eb (and not Bob's) first, to gain the consistency on the high parts that you're likely to run into.

Perhaps a main kicker to overcome anything that you'd use a fifth for. I've used a four valve Marzan (described as a "large" 4/4) for 40 years, and never wished for more valves. An F or Eb is another thing entirely. If it were me, THAT's where I'd want the extra valve (or two, or three...)

Get a decent euphonium or tenor tuba. They ain't cheap, either.

My $.02

[iiipopes]

What jonesbrass said.

[iiipopes]

Remember that bass tones carry a LOT less than treble.

Uh, no. Bass fundamentals are usually non-directional and carry at will. That's one reason the standard tuba bell is up and not out.

What does not carry are the overtones that give the definition to the tone to knit everything together, both in section and the orchestra as a whole.

Think about it: on a standard stereo speaker, you can hear the highs out of the tweeter up close and on axis, but beyond a certain range they start fading, while everyone has heard the boom-boom of the bass of an oversized car stereo a block away without the top end confined with the windows rolled up.

[windshieldbug]

Think about it: on a standard stereo speaker, you can hear the highs out of the tweeter up close and on axis, but beyond a certain range they start fading, while everyone has heard the boom-boom of the bass of an oversized car stereo a block away without the top end confined with the windows rolled up.

True, but think about the power required to do so. I remember from my electronic music days the highs would carry with very little db's, while just to hear the bass required mega db's. You're right, though, highs are very quickly absorbed by the insulation in a car or room, while lows can just travel through...

[glangfur]

From my perspective as a professional bass trombone player...it's the player, not the horn.

I've sat next to great players with very large tubas and other great players with very small tubas, and everything in between (including several 186's). I've sat next to the same player on different occasions with very different tubas, and it's always the player that makes the ensemble work for me, not the tuba.

That said, I sometimes have strong opinions about what horn I prefer for a given player, but usually it doesn't matter.

In other words, a 186 is a great horn, and there's no reason for you to change it unless YOU aren't satisfied with how it responds and sounds for you.

[Eric B]

There have been some real gems in some of these replies. Please keep them coming. I am almost convinced to keep the CC that I have. I must say that, with a little more practice, I could develop my tone enough to make "Principal Tuba Chair" in one of the regional universities in my area! Not a "world class sound", but I'm working on it.

[TubaRay]

Am I understanding the above post correctly? Do we have someone on TubeNet who does not have a "world class sound?"

[sc_curtis]

Am I understanding the above post correctly? Do we have someone on TubeNet who does not have a "world class sound?"

No World Class Sound?!?!?










Get the rope...........

[Wyvern]

In the UK, even some professionals, still use a Besson EEb tuba for everything, so there is no reason why you should not manage on a 4/4 CC of similar size.

You only really need to up-size if what you produce does not meet your's, or the conductor's sound concept.

However, before you go out and get a 6/4, make sure it will be acceptable to the conductor. My experience is that although most directors of music adore the rich sound of a 6/4, some ask for a smaller tuba.

Jonathan "who personally prefers a big tuba, but is prepared to down-size as required"

[hbcrandy]

Keep in mind, our predecessors used relatively small tubas for orchestral playing and sound wonderfully. Bill Bell and Joe Novotny played .687' bore King CC tubas and had no trouble being heard. Most of the tubas that have been mentioned in this thread have valve bores of anywhere from .735" to .770".

[Eric B]

Bill Bell and Joe Novotny ...King CC tubas and had no trouble being heard.

Thanks. That is part of the reason I asked the question. As one has already said, a great player will usually manage to sound great on virtually any tuba. Although there is is absolutely nothing wrong with gaining every advantage you are able to get if you have the means to do so.

The board has convinced me to stick with the 186 (for today anyway) and save my pennies for the Weril H980S and the Cerveny 653 5V F that I'm interested in acquiring. Well, I'd better get back to practicing so I can develop that world-class tuba sound I've read about.

[TubaRay]

Well, I'd better get back to practicing so I can develop that world-class tuba sound I've read about.

I'm most gratified to hear you are going to go practice and develop that World Class Sound. This should enable you to join the "elite" players who visit TubeNet, and have that sound.

[windshieldbug]

Just remember, it's not a world class sound unless your teacher says so

No, it's not a world-class sound unless you say your teacher said so...