Rotary BBb for playing in brass band

[Wyvern]

I will shortly be starting to regularly play in a brass band again on BBb bass. Although the band's Besson 3+1 BBb is available, there is no way I am going to play one of those again (particularly since suffering back and shoulder problems last year)!

My preference is for rotary valves, so am looking for a suitable rotary valve BBb.

I would appreciate feedback from anyone who has played a rotary BBb in a British (style) brass band on what model you play/played and how suitable it proved (size, tone, etc.).

At present the B&S GR-51 (PT-605) is the top of my list to check out. The Cerveny CBB-693 is another possibility I am considering.

Thanks for any feedback.

Jonathan

[Wyvern]

Were you ever able to locate a 3/4 slide for your Neptune to put it into Bb? Or just play it as a C tuba (read it down a step)?

No, I never managed to get that slide (B&S no longer seem to make). I have tried playing it with the 9/8 slide, but of course it is rather flat.

Transposing down a step is another option I have considered. However, through the occasional use of my Neptune, I have come to the conclusion that it is really a bit too broad sounding for brass band use. In other words, I want a bit more punch to the sound.

Thanks for the feedback on the MW 25 - I do know of a good used one available.

[Wyvern]

Of course, I don't know common a Miraphone Bb would be in England!

Rotary Miraphone are not generally available in the UK which is why I've never tried a Norwegian Star!

[TubaingAgain]

I would have to vote for the Miraphone 191 5 valve in gold brass. I recently bought a new 191 and all I can say is WOW WOW WOW Totally unbelievable how good this horn makes even a part timer like me sound. My musically challenged wife even said how fantastic the 191 sounds.

[Blake Dowling]

I myself haven't played rotary BBb in a brass band, but I've sat next to a few. they all get my votes. Either the big 5/4 alexander or the MW 25. (the third was a frankentuba made by it's player.)

[GC]

If you like a big horn and want rotary valves, you might consider the Miraphone 289. It's a big, Marzan-influenced slant-rotor horn with a big sound.

[Dan Schultz]

I don't like top-action horns.... especially those with the 4th piston on the side. It's just a personal thing. I play a Mirafone 186 five rotor BBb in our local brass band. We play a mix of horns. One of the guys plays a Cerveny 5/4 BBb, one fellow plays my Mirafone four-rotor Eb, and another plays a Conn 'monster' three-piston Eb. I suspect that some brass bands would be more finicky about what the guys play but the mix of horns seems to serve us quite well. I suspect if the director demanded that we play Bessons, there would be four of us who would take a hike!

[iiipopes]

I echo the beware the finicky people statement. Personally, I would love to see more variety in a brass band, but there are those who think otherwise, especially because of the century and a half plus tradition of UK and UK style brass bands with their formulary instrumentation.

Instead of thinking brand, think tonal quality: a little more overtone development, quicker response. So if you go rotary instead of the customary Besson or Besson-derived tubas, think a 4/4 size with a moderate bore, throat and bell flare, with a mouthpiece bowl of moderate width and moderate cup depth to give you a little more brightness and agility so your overtones knit the rest of the brass band together, and make sure something is pullable on the fly so you intonate with the compensating instruments.

No, I haven't played in a brass band, but I'd love to. But more importantly, I have played brass band derived charts, both of original British composers and medleys arranged in the style, in concert band on both my Besson and my Miraphone. So being an onlooker gives a unique perspective that is worth what you will. The Besson with the cavernous Wick 1, because of its construction, still has more overtones and a quicker response than my Miraphone with a Blessing 18, and as a result the Miraphone takes a lot more effort to play in the brass band style.

Will 20 other brass band players please move to the Springfield, Missouri area so I may join you for a local true brass band? We are so deprived. If you take the average university or community band player around here and say tenor horn, they think you mean a saxophone!

[jeopardymaster]

I had good success some years ago with a Mirafone 186, but the best of all was an old Cerveny kaisertuba, a real cannon. If you can swing a trip over to Deutchland, or can connect with someone via tubenet, there ought to be a way.

I'm with Dan - and you - on the top-action thing. My Conn 25J was great in brass band, but the ergonomics were not so good for my back and, um, package. Kind of got smushed a few times. It would have been better using a stand.

Worst of all, though, is when the section is all mixed up and you clobber each other with your bells.

It's always something.

[MaryAnn]

I know someone who plays a VMI BBb rotary very successfully in a British style brass band. He gets a really nice sound out of it.

MA

[Wyvern]

Anyone tried a Cerveny CBB-601/701?

[wrongtrousers]

The band I play with in Utah is constantly in need of tuba players. Consequently, we have a somewhat revolving section, the constants being a YEB 321 and a Neptune CC. When the situation arises that I have to switch to Eb (which I do not own) I use a MW45P and play the top Eb parts. When we are lucky enough to have two Eb players it is usually the above mentioned Yamaha and either a Besson 982 or 983 (whoever is available). Our second BBb is usually an MW25. I have sat with Miraphone 186 BBb's, Bessons (3+1's), Yamaha's (Piston and Rotary), and others. We have of course been forced to use other combinations on occaision but my point is (and yes I'm getting to it) is that a great noise can be made with a variety of combinations of horns. The Neptune may be too broad of a sound for your situation but for mine (with an expat brit conductor) it is highly desirable. Obviously you're going to pick the horn that satisifes you and does the job. I think you have to keep in mind that unless you have an extremely stable roster in your bass section you are going to have to adapt to a variety of situations. Is there a horn that does it all? Probably not, but there are a lot of good instruments that will help you achieve the results you desire. Am I going to suggest one? I think there have been many great suggestions made so far. Keep an open mind and try as many as you can.

[peter birch]

you know, most brass band players think in terms of boosey and hawkes and besson, with the sovereign being the oly instrument to play.
taking in something different will provoke mild interest and the ocaisional laugh until you start playing.
you probably know that the music is written in trebble clef already transposed, and may be a bit tricky if you usually play in bass clef.
good luck and stick with it, there is some good music to play

[peter birch]

you know, most brass band players think in terms of boosey and hawkes and besson, with the sovereign being the oly instrument to play.
taking in something different will provoke mild interest and the ocaisional laugh until you start playing.
you probably know that the music is written in trebble clef already transposed, and may be a bit tricky if you usually play in bass clef.
good luck and stick with it, there is some good music to play

profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3868

Do note the country.

me too

[Wyvern]

you know, most brass band players think in terms of boosey and hawkes and besson, with the sovereign being the oly instrument to play.
taking in something different will provoke mild interest and the ocaisional laugh until you start playing.

I have played intermittently as dep with the band (just a local village band) for years, so I think they have got used to me having an 'unusual' taste in tubas. They will be so pleased having me playing BBb bass, that I am sure any tuba I choose to use will be accepted.

The band has four Eb players, but has had no BBb for some years (quite common in non-championship bands in my experience), although there are two lottery bought virtually un-played Besson Sovereign BBb in the store cupboard - no-one is prepared to play them. I tried one once and had such back and neck ache afterwards that swore never again!

[Wyvern]

Jonathan, so what do they do? Double on the Eb parts or have 2 of the Eb players play Bb parts?

They mainly double on the Eb part with one sometimes dropping the octave - occasionally pencil in the BBb part where different and important. If I am playing BBb, I will insist they stop playing those BBb cues

Have you tried your PT-20?

My transposing to CC skills are not good enough

[ASTuba]

I am going to have to chime in here and say, that IMO, the best rotary BBb tubas I've ever played are the MW Fafner and the Miraphone 191. I never got to play both back to back, so I cannot give you that answer, but I still remember how good the Fafner was. I don't remember just exactly how well the Miraphone was, but I always was positively surprised when I played one while repairing them.

[tofu]

I can appreciate your back & neck pain concerns about playing one of the Bessons the band has. I have one of those BBb Bessons and have to tell you the one I have has a great sound and is a very nimble instrument in all registers. I can see why British Brass Bands prefer them because I have found mine has such a great blend with euphs/trombones versus say my Rudi or King 2341.

Perhaps you might want to consider using one of the band's BBb with a tuba stand which would eliminate your neck and back concerns. It would be a heck of a lot less investment on your part than buying a new BBb to play and you wouldn't have to worry about damage to your horn if the band travels. I don't know if your band marches, but if it doesn't you could also have the ball on the bottom (if the band's BBb still has it) removed.

[Andrew]

Just a thought - do you know of the COMPACT version of the BBb 3-top/1-side valve compensator which Willson make? It's the 3100 TA4:
http://images4.thomann.de/pics/prod/183545.jpg
http://www.swissprofi.ch/willson/bb-bass-occas.jpg

Compare it with the non-compact version
http://images4.thomann.de/pics/prod/183546.jpg

Both have exactly the same spec:

compensating system, 4 valves (3+1), stainless steel valves, top action, 18,00 mm bore, 20,00 mm 4th valve bore, brass body, Ø 500 mm brass bell, weight 12,50 kg, new water key system does not disrupt the air flow, clear lacquered

But the 3100 is 95 cm in height while the 6400 is 100.5 cm

If anyone knows these instruments I'd welcome comments because I'm seriously interested in getting a 3100 TA4 for myself

[Wyvern]

Just a thought - do you know of the COMPACT version of the BBb 3-top/1-side valve compensator which Willson make? ...

If anyone knows these instruments I'd welcome comments because I'm seriously interested in getting a 3100 TA4 for myself

Andrew, Thanks for bringing the Willson to my attention. However, not suitable in my case, because I suffered a shoulder injury last year which means I cannot comfortably operate top valves any more. I even with great regret had to part with my old Besson 981 EEb!

If you are interested in a compact BBb for yourself, it may be worth you checking out the one that Mark Carter at Mr.Tuba has made by Melton. That is only a little larger than an EEb. I have not tried myself, but it has got good reviews

http://www.tubanews.com/articles/contentid-200.html