Mouthpiece experiment

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:45 pm

I've been thinking for a couple of years now about buying some plasti-dip and dipping the rim of a mouthpiece in it. In case anyone is unaware of plasti-dip, it is a liquid that you can dip tool handles into that will cure into a rubbery surface. I've thought for some time that a plasti-dipped MP might seal better where my whiskers are under the rim (what can I say, the wife likes the 'stash & goatie). Well, I was at Lowes buying some supplies (to repair my son's band's equipment cart), and there it was in front of me: a can of plasti-dip, it's diameter large enough to comfortably accept a tuba mouthpiece.

So today (after an experiement that proved that I WILL be able to remove the plasti-dip if I want to) I took a little-used Bach 18 out to the garage. I used a piece of wire to suspend the mouthpiece (cup down), then dipped the rim into the plasti-dip. I allowed the first dip to cover the rim inside and out, so it would have enough surface area to grip the mouthpiece. I don't know why it didn't occur to me before doing this that dipping it 1/4 inch into the plasti-dip would also line the INSIDE of the cup to that distance. So when the first coat skinned (a couple of minutes later) I dipped it again - this time just touching the surface to add another layer to the cushiony part of the rim, but not compounding the coating of the inside of the cup. Then, I hung it up and let it sit for six hours (they say four is enough to fully cure, but...)

So tonight I gave it its first test. My first and greatest concern was that I might find articulations less crisp; I've not noticed that to be the case. It does seem as though it might play a tiny bit flatter (consistently, so it's not a problem). It's very grippy, which lots of people don't care for, and it seems to produce a slightly warmer tone (which may or may not be a good thing for any individual).

If my first fear was that articulations would be worse, my greatest hope was that the low range would be better. It's still a little early to pronounce it "better"; I can definitely say that it is "different", though. In a few days I'll know if it's better.

I'll post more as time progresses; but I can say that this might be a viable option for marchers. It's definitely more cushioned, and insulated to boot; and the rubber might prevent dents if dropped (or cover dents, rough spots, or unplated areas on your cruddy old mouthpiece). I'll also post some pictures in a few days, when time permits.
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Joe Baker who is cautiously optimistic with this experiment.

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:31 pm

The plasti-dip definitely makes it more cushioned, as well as "grippier".

I chose the Bach 18 because it is the closest MP I have to my main piece, a Schilke 67c4, and because I don't use it (it IS an experiment after all; I have to keep my main MP available).

Trouble in the low range was my main reason for trying the stuff. I've never had a satisfactory low range, but it's definitely worse with whiskers. I'm hoping that the flexibility of the dip will cause the MP to seal better over whiskers, and help me with my lower register.
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Joe Baker, who notes that a lot of people must like the Bach 18, or they'd quit making it.

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:58 pm

I've never been as sensitive to mouthpiece differences as some people are (I regularly play tuba, trombone, and euph all with different size pieces), but of course it does affect both the diameter and the shape of the rim, making it smaller diameter and wider, rounder rim. But the change is relatively subtle, I think. This stuff is not real thick -- each dip is about as thick as a heavy coat of paint, so (with only one dip in the interior of the cup) it's a pretty small difference.

BTW, cost of a pot of plasti-dip if you want to try it is about $7.00, and it can be removed if you don't like it.
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Joe Baker, whose plasti-dip is available for others to try at no cost in West Knoxville, TN.

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:45 am

I bought mine at Lowes, but I've seen it at Home Depot. It's smooth, but "non-slip".

I'm becoming annoyed with the plasti-dip inside the cup of the MP, by the way. Because it doesn't adhere, the stuff inside has become a flap that, I believe, is robbing some of the sound energy. I'm going to try to trim enough of that off to alleviate the problem, but leave enough so that it doesn't come off of the mouthpiece.

And my community band rehearses tonight, so I'll be able to report how it does in band.
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Joe Baker

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 9:43 am

You might try some plastic resin (like that used in building fiberglass boats or what the crafts people call "casting resin"). At least that wouldn't be flexible and would probably be smooth enough to provide a "semi-slip" surface.

Philip Jensen · Post by **Philip Jensen** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:01 am

Joe Baker wrote:

BTW, cost of a pot of plasti-dip if you want to try it is about $7.00, and it can be removed if you don't like it.

Of course then you're left with a whole can of plasti-dip, that from personal experience hardens a couple of months after opening.

Now for a bit more money, here's another product that might work.

http://www.pierresilber.com/liquidlatex.html

After conducting your own personal experiments - I'm talking about the mouthpieces

the product has some uses for the leftovers that are a bit more interesting than coating pliers handles.

Mudman · Post by **Mudman** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:46 pm

Joe Baker wrote:The plasti-dip definitely makes it more cushioned, as well as "grippier".

To me "grippier" translates into "tears the skin off your face."

Metal allergies forced me to use Lexan rims for several years. The downside (for me) was some loss of flexibility when my chops would get stuck in a certain position (usually in the middle of a very long phrase, just when I needed to make a wide melodic leap.) The porous Lexan seemed to pull off more skin than the smoother metal mouthpieces.

Good luck! It is fun to experiment. (I once tried using nail-polish to coat a metal rim that was causing my skin to break out.)

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:33 pm

tubatom wrote:Joe:
The experiment sounds like it is working for you, but I would like to know the toxicity of the plastic you are useing. I have a fear that the oils from the plastic may come out and be toxic.
Just a thought as I am not a expert.

Good Luck :

I mentioned this a couple of years ago, and someone raised that very concern. A chemist that was on the board at the time (I don't remember who it was, so I don't remember if they're still around) assured me that once fully cured there was no danger. There is no detectable odor, at any rate, and the surface feels like any other rubber. I looked at the Materials Safety Data Sheet, and I recognize the solvents, toluene, hexane and methyl ethyl ketone. My recollection is that the chemist said those would all fully evaporate, and once it was cured there'd be no danger.

Of course, I don't guarantee ANY of that to be correct.
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Joe Baker, who is a risk-taker!

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:46 pm

Interestingly C. G. Conn first got into the instrument business when he "invented" a cornet mouthpiece with a rubber rim for cushioning (similar to what you are describing) so he could play after hurting his mouth in a fight.

Here's a link to the story and a photo of one of those first mouthpieces.

http://www.usd.edu/~mbanks/CONN1.html#form

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:20 pm

Miah wrote:Humm i did some looking maybe this stuff would be a little less grippy but still semi soft.
http://www.plastidip.com/industrial/hcf.html

You could probably even get some for free. Tell them what you are wanting to do, and see if they'll supply a small, 1/2 pint, sample. Maybe just pay shipping?

I've done this a few times. Most recently, for a part for my digital camera. HP wanted $250 to "fix" it. I took it apart, found the part number and manufcturer for the broken connector. Called the manufacturer, Molex here, and told them what I wanted and why. They sent me two connectors for free:)

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:34 am

Joe's plasticdip idea strikes me as a way to make usable again mouthpieces with rim nicks and cuts. I wonder if the dipping would fill in the surface nicks and cuts enough to give a smooth surface again? What do you think Joe?

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:54 am

First, to tofu: yeah, I think it would fill nicks just fine; even if some artifact of the nick remained, at least you wouldn't cut yourself or get brass poisoning from it.
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Now, more about my results. I went to band practice last night. Some of the stuff we play is pretty range-y, with lots of leaps, and I discovered what it's like to play a grippy mouthpiece on that type of material. I'll say this, if you think you don't change your mouthpiece setup over your range, use a mouthpiece like this and you'll know for sure. It got to hurting pretty bad after a while, and I had to switch back my normal, non-rubberized MP. I'll probably try to continue getting used to it, but now I DO understand the objections of people who don't like grippy mouthpieces.

For those who DO like them, let me say that I went around the inside of the rim and trimmed away all of the PD that was actually extending down into the cup. It had become sort of a loose flap, and I felt it was robbing me of some of the sound energy. Removing that excess made the piece sound just right, almost exactly as if the PD wasn't there at all. From that point on, the ONLY negative was the way it gripped, and I did perceive some positives. Fully aware that a placebo effect could be at play, it seemed to me like I had much more flexibility. Only time will tell if that perception was real or not.

I'll keep posting as I discover more. Thanks, everyone for your comments, questions and encouragement.
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Joe Baker, who was particularly intrigued to learn that Col. Conn started this way

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Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:37 am

mandrake wrote:[Your results are worth some investigation. You state that it feels like your flexibility has improved, which begs the question "If we moved our lips less on the mouthpiece, even without plasticdip, would our flexibility improve?" I'll take a look at this over the next few days and if I find anything of import then I will come back and let you know. It seems logical, given that the work should be done by your lips and not your whole head moving.

Well, you always test your theory by spraying your favorite mouthpiece with this:

I'd like to see a mouthpiece with a teflon-coated rim. Unfortunately, there aren't any reliable do-it-yourself teflon coatings available. But Brownells markets this bake-on moly-teflon coating for the gun crowd:

Don't know if I'd want to stick my face into that, though.

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:50 am

mandrake wrote:
Joe Baker wrote:I went to band practice last night.
Oh lucky you! We're still on probation .

Your results are worth some investigation. You state that it feels like your flexibility has improved, which begs the question "If we moved our lips less on the mouthpiece, even without plasticdip, would our flexibility improve?" I'll take a look at this over the next few days and if I find anything of import then I will come back and let you know. It seems logical, given that the work should be done by your lips and not your whole head moving.

I take it "probation" means summer vacation from school? Not that it matters greatly, but my band is a community band, just so there's no confusion.

It's possible you're right that the lack of movement was what aided my flexibility; but I don't think so. I think it was the seal, which distributed the pressure much more evenly than normal. Because our teeth present a rounded surface, there is typically more pressure just at the spot that is supposed to vibrate; with this mouthpiece, that pressure is distributed, giving me more freedom to make the small adjustments that it takes to change pitches.

More later.
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Joe Baker, who wishes he were practicing today instead of working.