Hold Harmless and insurance for TubaChristmas?

jlbreyer · Post by **jlbreyer** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:32 pm

The venue where we have played the TubaChristmas concert for years now wants us to sign a hold harmless agreement and have insurance of $1 million for the event Does anyone have any prior experience with such a situation?

Eric B · Post by **Eric B** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:11 pm

Our mall changed owners 2 years ago. That year they let me know that we'd have to carry $1 million in insurance. I dropped the event upon hearing that.

bill · Post by **bill** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:20 pm

Has any of you contacted the Harvey Phillips Foundation and asked them how this is handled by other venues? I don't think your situation is unique.

When I was doing consulting, I had to carry insurance against a variety of possible injuries and, when I ran motorcycle rallies, I was also required to carry such insurance. In both cases it was really pretty inexpensive ($200) for the insurance. It is not expensive because it is not a general policy but a policy for a specific venue. But you may find the HPF has a suggestion about how to handle such a request from your venue.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:52 pm

My community band carries a 5 million umbrella policy. It's required by the locals because we use town facilities. It's not at all uncommon for a not-for-profit to be required to show proof of insurance and have a certificate on file. Since insurance laws vary from state-to-state, it's probably not feasible for the Harvey Phillips Foundation to carry a policy that will cover all TubaChristmas activities. Our insurance costs around $500 a year. You might check with one of your local not-for-profits to see if they will allow you to do a gig under their auspices.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:56 pm

You can also purchase a policy for single day. I priced them a couple of years ago and it was about $80 for $1 million in coverage.

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:30 am

I had to find insurance when my band played a wedding at a fancy country club last year. After a lot of shopping around the best we could find was a policy from the musician's union: $250 bought us a year of coverage.

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:05 am

Art Hovey wrote:I had to find insurance when my band played a wedding at a fancy country club last year. After a lot of shopping around the best we could find was a policy from the musician's union: $250 bought us a year of coverage.

I'm curious why the band would need to provide insurance?
It's not your event or facility. Seems to me that if the country club is making their facility available for events that they are being paid for then they should have insurance that covers these events or the event holder should have to have the insurance. My jazz band has done lots of these types of gigs and never been asked to provide insurance.

What are they afraid of happening because of the band -- somebody being bashed in the head by your tuba?

Alex C · Post by **Alex C** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:26 am

Our society has become litigious and the corporations which own malls and shopping centers want protection. I don't like it but have run up against this kind of thing a lot recently. A one week policy for $5million would have cost me about $150.

They don't care what it costs you, they just want to be insulated from any lawsuit brought for any reason. An example? If one of your band members fell off the stage and got injured, your policy would protect them. Not likely you say! Then the policy should be cheap! they say.

It is totally impractical to look to the Harvey's foundation to cover all of the local chapters. Not a solution.

I know the TubaChristmas here charges a minimal fee; that fee could include covering the expense. Still it is a waste of resources. Bloke's solution (which is to look for another venue) is a very practical approach.

The DFW TubaChristmas guru needs to post. Oh, Steve.....

BVD Press · Post by **BVD Press** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:16 am

For NERTEC, we we required to have proof of insurance before even entering the building with or merchandise. I don't think it is a bad thing to get your butt covered?

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:23 am

knuxie wrote:Is there similar insurance for golfers who hit errant shots and break windows or windshields?

Just like bad notes; you open your mouth and look suddenly at the person NEXT to you...

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:24 pm

Alex C wrote:I know the TubaChristmas here charges a minimal fee; that fee could include covering the expense.

Take a look at the fee amount and the portion of it that goes to the Foundation. I don't know that difference, but back in the day when I did, the amount that stayed with the local promoter would not buy an insurance policy even if there were no other expenses, unless you have several hundred attendees. Even then we had to dip into our pockets to make it work, and assume all of the financial risk for the event.

Maybe it's changed since then.

Rick "who knows how to count pennies" Denney

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:43 pm

The brass band (and other bands) that I played with had to have $1 milliion of insurance just to rent a rehearsal hall. It has become common.

If people didn't sue just to see how much money they can get, it would not have become common. Three percent of the people are generally responsible for all the rules, laws, regulations, and insurance needs.

What's that joke about 50 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean being a good start? To me, it's not so much the lawyers but the judges who take the cases; of course they are lawyers too, and protecting their own, so to speak. If law schools didn't need to stay in business by turning out more lawyers than are needed, the ones we have would be occupied with something other than frivolous lawsuits.

MA

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:49 pm

MaryAnn wrote:If law schools didn't need to stay in business by turning out more lawyers than are needed, the ones we have would be occupied with something other than frivolous lawsuits

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but if music schools didn't need to stay in business by turning out more musicians than are needed, the ones we have would be occupied with something other than frivolous music...

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:02 pm

knuxie wrote:
I'm curious why the band would need to provide insurance?
Can you imagine the damage if 200 tuba players suddenly hit a note SO in tune it shatters glass on both sides of the mall (like the opera singer against all the bottled beer that guy brought in the Bud commercial)? Who's gonna pay for that clean up? Ken F.

I seem to remember an episode of South Park where there is a singing event for grade schools across the country and the NY kids needle the South Park kids so bad that Cartman searches for the note that when sung will cause them to crap in their pants. But things go horribly wrong when the note accidentally gets inserted into not only the New Yorkers song but into the massed groups song. When the note is reached everyone on earth craps in their pants.

Certainly would be a TubaChristmas finish to remember.

Alex C · Post by **Alex C** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:53 am

Rick Denney wrote:
Alex C wrote:I know the TubaChristmas here charges a minimal fee...
...the amount that stayed with the local promoter would not buy an insurance policy even if there were no other expenses, unless you have several hundred attendees.

Maybe it's not representative to use the DFW TubaChristmas as a model. I don't think Steve has another job (at least no one has ever actually seen him working) so I think that he must make enough money on this alone to pay all of the expenses and live the good life.

Those of you that know Steve can now pick yourself up off the floor and stop laughing.

Insurance for this event is a problem and a waste of resources. Like EKOLB said, find another venue that doesn't require the insurance.

tubapress · Post by **tubapress** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:03 pm

Bill is right on. Contact Harvey Phillips. He's seen it all and I know he will have an answer for you!

Gary

bill wrote:Has any of you contacted the Harvey Phillips Foundation and asked them how this is handled by other venues? I don't think your situation is unique.

When I was doing consulting, I had to carry insurance against a variety of possible injuries and, when I ran motorcycle rallies, I was also required to carry such insurance. In both cases it was really pretty inexpensive ($200) for the insurance. It is not expensive because it is not a general policy but a policy for a specific venue. But you may find the HPF has a suggestion about how to handle such a request from your venue.

dwaskew · Post by **dwaskew** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:35 pm

I replied to the original poster and the initial problem is probably solved. The reality is, we're running into problem after problem after problem with performing in pretty much any non-traditional venue. Increasingly malls, schools, churches, you name it are requiring any non-employee groups, performers, etc. to come up with this type of insurance. HPF Inc. realized this several years ago, and changed their policies accordingly. Having hosted TC events for 16 years now, there was a shift in how this was handled. There used to be a "rebate" per performer system, that was dropped, due to the need for HPF to carry this very type of insurance. I didn't need to deal with it for several years, but the past 2-3, I've had to show proof of this type of insurance (at the same venue we've been at for 14 years of my 16 hosting). I emailed HPF, they faxed the proof of insurance, no problems since.

let this thread die, now, folks.

brianf · Post by **brianf** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:52 pm

is it accurate to say that "the Foundation" probably doesn't give a **** about liability, and only exists to glean a few bucks from the toobah xmas phrase, with minimal effort and cost to HP and his minions?

Yes, Dennis has asked for this thread to die, and it should but . . .

EXCUSE ME! Nailing the Harvey Phillips Foundation - THE person who has done more to promote the tuba and, more importantly, get composers to write music for the tuba. Where would we be if Harvey Phillips did not develop relationships with these composers? How about reaching into his pocket and commissioning new works? That is a part of the Harvey Phillips Foundation along with TubaChristmas. These things cost money, charging $5 a head for TubaChristmas is nothing!

Now let's drop this!

LoyalTubist · Post by **LoyalTubist** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:45 am

I agree with the previous post.

In 2000, I tried to have one of the groups I was in charge of play a Christmas concert at a shopping mall in Riverside, California (only one was around then, so it's not hard to guess which one, as there are two).

They said they were no longer having groups come in to play such concerts (professional, amateur, school, or church) because of an incident that happened the previous year in which a woman fell off a stage during a performance. Not one mall in my immediate area would sponsor anything like that, despite that the accident took place in the San Francisco Bay area.

Barney · Post by **Barney** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:03 am

brianf wrote: EXCUSE ME! Nailing the Harvey Phillips Foundation - THE person who has done more to promote the tuba and, more importantly, get composers to write music for the tuba. Where would we be if Harvey Phillips did not develop relationships with these composers? How about reaching into his pocket and commissioning new works? That is a part of the Harvey Phillips Foundation along with TubaChristmas. These things cost money, charging $5 a head for TubaChristmas is nothing!

Now let's drop this!

Threads die when they're ready to die, whether someone (besides Sean, of course) attempts to bully them or not.

No one was asking to "nail" the Harvey Phillips Foundation. They were simply stating, and correctly I believe, that the Foundation could insure ALL of the sanctioned TubaChristmasÂ® events more economically than leaving it to each organizer. That doesn't mean the organizer wouldn't chip in, it just means the organizer would just chip in LESS. Looking for ways to make costs feasible are critical if we want these events to continue. And if the Harvey Phillips Foundation has the foresight to continue to lead the way, everyone benefits. Excuse ME.

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