Intonation on big tubas

[Peach]

Which BATs or near-BATs folks have played where the intonation stood out as particularly good or bad? Bb or C, whichever. What are the +/-'s in Cent terms??

I'm guessing the very big horns tend to be inconsistent so I'm not looking for anything definitive with this, just folks observations.

Thanks.

[Rick Denney]

Which BATs or near-BATs folks have played where the intonation stood out as particularly good or bad? Bb or C, whichever. What are the +/-'s in Cent terms??

I'm guessing the very big horns tend to be inconsistent so I'm not looking for anything definitive with this, just folks observations.

Thanks.

The new Meinl-Weston Alan Baer model is about as good as it gets (which is pretty good). Others can be good--or not. My Holton is quite decent, but other Holtons not so. I've heard people praise all the other copies, while others declare them unmanageable.

Rick "who would never consider a BAT without an audition" Denney

[jeopardymaster]

Well, is a Neptune a BAT? If so, I can tell you mine is pretty much dead-on. Bottom line G is a few cents sharp open. Depending on the key, sometimes I play it 3-5 if I have to sustain it. No other adjustments are needed.

Many of those cut Holtons are all over the map. Likewise some of the Nirschls I've tried.

Otherwise, I'd say the quality curve on the big horns probably looks pretty similar to that of smaller horns - manufacturer by manufacturer. They just cost more.

[windshieldbug]

What are the +/-'s in Cent terms?

Quite frankly, that depends on who you're playing with, the kind of intonation being used, the sensitivity of their ears, and the sensitivity of your ears. What you really want is to know how flexible they are.

[iiipopes]

BATs come in souzy form as well. With the upper 1st valve tubing made into a slide for pulling for combinations, BAT souzys can have as good intonation as a lot of good 6/4 tubas, and better than some.

[MartyNeilan]

Define "intonation" - does it mean that the tuba plays perfectly in tune with the fingerings in the back of a Beginning Band book?
OR
Does it mean that with the right combination of alternate fingerings and reasonable slide movement, every note within the playable range of the tuba can be played in tune?
Some BAT's and other large CC tubas have a very flat G on the bottom of the staff. But, if that note slots perfectly 13 or 4, does it really matter, if you are willing to use that fingering consistently?
I have not played very many CC tubas that have a perfect E in the staff. So I have to play that E 12 and the Eb below it 23. Even on the vaunted 186. If the notes are in tune with those fingerings instead of open and 2, does it matter?
My Kalison Pro 2001 has one very bad note. Middle C (one ledger above the staff for the piano impaired). Very bad, to the point that many people passed over these otherwise excellent 5/4-6/4 horns because of that note. However, I have found two workarounds that do not require major contortions or excessive tubing. So, if I am willing to play it with one of those fingerings, does it become an issue?

[Alex C]

You cannot generalize 6/4 tubas in any way, whether it be for intonation, response or tone. Not only is every make different but every manufacturer's production has variables.

For example, I have played two York-copies by one respected maker; one was so close the Jake's horn that I couldn't believe it, the other played like a BBb Besson Imperial (that's NOT a good thing).

I've played over a dozen Holton York-copies, every one was different. A few were bad and some were good enough to play. Only two were great instruments. The cause may be attributed to the hand assembly and construction that these horns require. Very few manufacturers get much chance to gain consistancy on building large tubas.

I've played the modern versions of the York-copies, they have their good and bad points but, as Schlep pointed out, if you are looking for a predictable instrument, buy a 186.

If you want to buy a 6/4 that plays in tune, start trying them out; eventually you may find one you can live with. Have money in hand.

[iiipopes]

You cannot generalize 6/4 tubas in any way...
the other played like a BBb Besson Imperial (that's NOT a good thing).

OK, I gotta wave the flag here. In your first sentence you caution against generalizing, then you go right ahead and do it.

First of all, On the Besson side of the assembly room, the model is called the New Standard. Imperial is what was engraved on the B&H side of the room, and usually sent to the military bands.

Second, if there are any generalities, Imperials have a reputation of actually being some of the best in tune, meaning put down the straightforward fingering and go, tubas ever made. Granted, since it has been decades since the last production, it is difficult to find one in top shape in order to appreciate that. Any worn tuba will have its problems.

Third, My Besson is in that same category. If anything, it has even better intonation than my 186. The only tradeoff is that 1-3 C and 123 B nat are a little "stuffy" from the return trip through the valve block. Intonation is so perfect that in ensemble it is the one chosen for the band to tune to, and not only are the 5th partials perfectly in tune, but on my particular instrument I can play the 7th partials G and Gb top space with just 2nd & 1st valve respectively, in tune.

Fourth, there is one series of Besson tubas that, unfortunately, lets everyone down: the early Sovs after the bell was changed from 17 to 19 inches. Admittedly, these 4-valve tubas have their faults, because all they did to start with was just stick the larger diameter bell on, which caused intonation problems. After a few years, the inner bows were reengineered, these issues were sorted out, and again the tubas were superlative until the last morbid days which were a function of management, not the inherent design of a superlative tuba.

Now, where were we: Conn 2XJ's can run the range from absolutely great to absolutely dreadful.

[Rick Denney]

Define "intonation" - does it mean that the tuba plays perfectly in tune with the fingerings in the back of a Beginning Band book?
OR
Does it mean that with the right combination of alternate fingerings and reasonable slide movement, every note within the playable range of the tuba can be played in tune?

I think it means that the instrument is manageable with a reasonable set of fingerings that don't usually require valve combinations in lieu of the open bugle. It means that when played in tune, the sound is even throughout the range, and it means that the player doesn't have to have a lookup table in his head about how to bend each and every note to make it match pitch with his mates. Finally, it means that if the instrument has sharp slots, those slots are very close to the right place.

Since everyone brings a battle plan left over from their previous instruments to any new instrument they play, it's not easy to be sure of a tuba's intonation without exercising considerable care.

At the end of the day, does making the instrument play in tune require concentration or does it come naturally? Does it tire the player out or invigorate him? Is it fun to play or does it seem like work?

Rick "who prefers tubas that don't seem like work" Denney

[iiipopes]

At the end of the day, does making the instrument play in tune require concentration or does it come naturally? Does it tire the player out or invigorate him? Is it fun to play or does it seem like work?

Rick "who prefers tubas that don't seem like work" Denney

And so do I, especially as I play for the pure fun of it. Why else would I lug it around, since I don't get paid a salary or wages for doing it?

All three of mine make you glad you've taken time to play them, rather than feeling like you've had to work to play them. When playing any or all three of mine, after a good concentrated proper warmup, you play the music instead of worrying about the mechanics of the thing just getting corresponding sounds out of the ink dots and curly-cues on the paper when the conductor moves his hand.

[iiipopes]

A 38K especially, if you've never picked one up, with its huge throat and 30lbs+ of good brass, definitely qualifies as a 6/4.

[Peach]

Seems like I need to restate what I already said - most people don't seem to have understood...

Would folks comment on their experiences with intonation on big tubas.

i.e. "I own and play tuba-X 8/4 C and it's great. Bottom line G is 1 cent flat which is a real pain but I use 1-3 and squeeze my butt cheeks together as a workaround. Otherwise every other note is perfect even if I try to play out of tune."

How far out are bad notes in cents? Are they fixable - pulls or alternates?
I don't want to buy one. Just want to know what some people live with.

I also don't want a 188.

[Wyvern]

There seems to be enough tone elasticity that pitch can be stretched guite a bit without sacrificing tonal beauty and clarity

I have found that same characteristic with my Neptune. If you check against a tuner, some notes appear as much as 20% out, but I rarely have intonation problems playing with an orchestra or band - I automatically bend the notes to pitch when playing in an ensemble.

Tuners are fine for finding the optimal positions of slides, but in an ensemble, listening and adjusting pitch accordingly is what is important.

[Peach]

I'll try this once again, a slightly different way-

I don't think I've asked for generalisations of any kind - I'm looking for specific first-hand experiences with large-tuba-pitch. I want to know what sorts of pitch difficulties players live with and work around when they play tuba. I asked about big tubas but this could just as well apply to any size.

I'm not buying a tuba and am not looking for any recommendations.

If someone states their Yorka-Hama-Catastro-Phone can't play a Western scale I wont presume that they all can't; just that particular one.

Thanks to those who've responded with experiences...

[TubaRay]

I'll try this once again, a slightly different way-

The TNFJ strikes again!!!

[MikeMason]

My holton did not play in tune.It had to be played in tune.I pulled slides alot.I had the main slide cut a bit.I had a MW valveset with slides I could reach.There really wasn't a note without some sort of solution.I never had any negative intonation feedback while I had it,but I was always vigilant about carefully and proactively adjusting.I always assumed the problem was me,when there was one.I really haven't battle-tested Mr. Thor yet,but I'm expecting a little easier go with it,based on practice room playing.P.S., Peach, our main goal is not always to specifically answer a poster's question only.This is also our social circle where we visit and chit-chat amongst ourselves,with specific questions just getting the ball rolling.Some good information can come about this way.

[Peach]

Peach, our main goal is not always to specifically answer a poster's question only.This is also our social circle where we visit and chit-chat amongst ourselves,with specific questions just getting the ball rolling.Some good information can come about this way.

Thanks Mike, and I know... No point me getting shitty just because I'm not getting answers exactly like I hoped. It's still an interesting thread either way.

Cheers! :D

[MikeMason]

Bob, I did have and use it for a while as a 3 valve.The tendencies were similar.The valves were a bit worn and the horn was a bit foggier before the new valves.The new ones could be adjusted alot better and easier as well.

[Wyvern]

No point me getting shitty just because I'm not getting answers exactly like I hoped.

Malcolm,
In my experience you rarely get exactly the answers you want! We are all like a load of tuba players sitting around having a chat. Someone starts a subject of discussion and it can go in any direction.

What I am curious about, is why you want to know anyway?

Jonathan "who does not usually analyse the intonation of his tubas"

[Rick Denney]

I'm looking for specific first-hand experiences with large-tuba-pitch.

My BB-345 Holton is a typical big tuba--the intonation is a little squirrelly. The worst problem for me was that the sixth partial was quite sharp, and I usually finger them on the 7th partial (i.e., G on second valve, F on 1-2). Higher notes were fine, as limited by my general abilities.

The fifth partial is right on. For me, the fourth partial is flat, but that was not the case for Joe when he evaluated my instrument for the improvements it is now receiving.

The third partial is fine. Joe found the low Bb to be extremely sharp when the slide was positioned were I usually put it. I'm reserving judgment on that one for now. We will probably lengthen the main slide and then see how that works.

With those quirks, I would consider my Holton to have excellent intonation for a big tuba. Conclude what you may from that statement. If I can play it in an ensemble and not attract complaints, then it must be reasonably manageable.

I usually have about 2" showing on the third slide, and about 3" on the fourth slide. The first slide is typically all the way home.

Rick "noting that none of the above fell outside +/- 20 cents at worst" Denney