Tuba sin?

[andrew the tuba player]

Ok...I want some advise. Last night I went and saw a tuba/euphonium Recital. The guy mainly used a Euphonium but for his tuba portion used a nice size F tuba. I was wondering if it would be an abosolute tuba sin to get an F tuba for colladge. I really liked the warm tone and the way it doesnt go 'airy' in the high range like the bigger horns. So, yeah, Just like some input.

[andrew the tuba player]

No. I want to sell the Mirafone because i want Pistons (or mostly pistons ). But, As far as big horns go (not to brag) I'm pretty good. I can sling a conn 20J just as good as the 186 or any of th other big horns I've played (yammy 321, 621, conn 20k sousie, the 20J). But, im not experienced with the smaller horns as much. So, i thought maybe i could get an F tuba and gain some experience with the smaller horns in high school. Plus i play in a small band and solo in church alot. So, i thought an F tuba would be good for me. And, if i got to colladge and needed/wanted a C horn i could swap or play a school horn. sorry its so long, just my thoughts on the subject. Thanks for your advice.

[SqueakyOnion]

I'm just a lowly euph player, but from what I gather it seems that a C has far more applications than an F. I doubt most teachers would recommend getting an F as the only horn you own.

You probably don't want to deal with school horns. Not only could it be abused, you might have to share it with someone.

I'd do what's already been suggested: stick with the C.

[Rick Denney]

F tubas are fun, but they are risky. They tempt you to spend lots of time playing up high, and ignoring the more important work you need to be doing down low. And if your tone is airy up high, then there's more work to be done down low, it seems to me.

I think you should resist the temptation for now. You'll need the F eventually, but only after you really are as good as you think you are on the big tuba, when it won't be a distraction from learning the fundamentals.

Remember, if you want to be a pro, "good for your age" or "pretty good" won't cut it. You have to achieve real excellence. In fact, you really do have to be the best. My advice is to set your standards higher and keep them just beyond what you can do.

(F tubas are not used in that many professional settings outside of Germany, unless you are good enough to be a recitalist. Don't make it your primary instrument.)

Rick "who thinks 'I'm pretty good' is a dangerous statement for any teenage student interested in excellence" Denney

[bort]

Rick is right...F tubas are fun, but you should make sure you have options. Also, playing F tuba is really playing a different instrument. It's not just a matter of picking up a smaller horn and playing higher. You have to

Stick with a C tuba (either the 186 or something [good] with pistons), and see where that takes you.

And don't let GAS (Gear Aquisition Syndrome) get the best of you. That's for old people with disposable income!

[Casey Tucker]

great advice all around. my professor plays eefer 99.9% of the time but that is because it suits his situation. he keeps a nice rudy 5v CC around but i HARDLY EVER see him play it. playing only F right now most likely doesn't fit your situation. this concept also goes along with people WANTING AND NOT NEEDING 6/4 BAT. i just bought an F and i'm a sophomore in college for 3 reasons:

1.) i play in a brass quintet where the sound fits nicely.
2.) i got it for a steal. couldn't pass up the deal (plays well too :))

and,
3.) because of my age i have to start participating in artist level competitions and the rep is getting to the point where it would do well on F. also, some of the schools i'm auditioning at ask for the VW and even though achievable on CC, easier and more appropriate (i think) on F.

what bort said about it being a completely different instrument is TRUE. it's not about learning new fingerings. playing F has presented all new kinds of obstacles such as intonation, mpc's, application, register and balance. if you do end up buying an F KEEP YOUR CC. your low register will suffer. hell, mine does after 30 min (another obstacle).

all in all, give it a few years and then shop around. who knows, maybe by that time everyone with those nifty 2182's and kodiaks will start selling them for a steal!! :D :D :D :D :D

good luck! hope this helped!

[jonesbrass]

Andrew, it's no sin. I'm really tempted to tell you to go the "F as the only tuba I own" route, as almost all schools (even the poor state ones) own a stable of CC or BBb tubas. And, truth be told, you can play any of the contrabass literature on a good F, especially if you take the time to really learn how to play the whole range well. The F doesn't have to be strictly a solo/brass quintet instrument, even though it tends to be treated that way on this side of the atlantic.
Okay, now that I'm done playing devil's advocate, I'll tell you what I'd do. Stick with your contrabass, and don't be overly concerned about the "pistons or rotors" thing. As long as the horn really doesn't hold you back, you're better off spending your time on the one you have and getting as much performing experience as you can. Master that horn. When you eventually pick up the F, 99% of the typical "F tuba problems" (playing low C, stuffy low range, alternate fingerings, etc.) won't really be much of a problem for you. Just my $0.02, YMMV.

[tubathig]

In line with my collegues here... Most college teachers would prefer that the CC be the primary instrument. In my opinion you need to be profiecent on it before you start look at a smaller horn for solo work or some orchestra applications... All of my teachers, undergrad and graduate alike stressed the importance of CC tuba playing, and If I am not mistaken Dave Zerkel wrote a nice article for ITEA journal several years ago stressing this as well... If you got the chops to play it on CC you got chops

[TubaBob]

Whatever makes your lips buzz on pitch is good for you!

And the more often the better.

[MartyNeilan]

In college your "bread and butter playing" is probably going to be in a large band or orchestra - that will be the ensemble most visible, (unless you happen to be touring with the faculty quintet, assuming your school has one.) Ask yourself, what instrument is going to do the best job of putting a bottom on that high profile ensemble. Directors of these ensembles will almost never ask for a smaller horn. It is often these directors who hand out ensemble-related scholarships.

[windshieldbug]

OK, I'll suggest an even greater tuba sin. Keep your 186, and if you want to play up high, see if you can borrow a(n) euphonium. You'll still have to get used to another mouthpiece, the tenor tuba also has a beautiful sound, and if you continue on, it's something else you'll have to learn.

The 186 is a solid, saleable horn, and if you're going to be a tuba player, you may find out by the time you hit college that you NEED something else. Or, you teacher may see it before you do. What is unlikely is that whatever you acquire now will turn out to be what you need later.

When you audition for schools, for example, with an F and no CC/BBb, your prospective teachers may say to themselves, "nice sound, but does he have DEPTH!?".

The fact is, at this time in your life, quite a bit is changing VERY RAPIDLY. In a band I play in, I sit next to a guy who plays VERY WELL on an Eb. But he is sure what he is going to use the horn for, sure where his life is heading (and HAS BEEN), and knows how he'll use it.

I play my F a FRACTION OF THE TIME that I use any of my CC's, and although I love playing it, even for orchestral playing I don't get it out that often, and when I do, I'm likely to be switching horns in a piece.

Most F's don't have THAT solid a very low register, and I'd recommend learning it (and perhaps fighting with it) when your chops get more developed.

$0.02

[adam0408]

Don't do it. Wait to purchase the F. Weaknesses on the big horn will be magnified on the small horn. It really is not that much easier to play high on an F tuba than a CC tuba. Notes center better up there and it is slightly easier to get a round tone, but it takes the same amount of embouchure strength to get those notes. The only reason the F is more suited for solo work is that it sounds more clear and has more of what people expect in a solo sound.

I am a strong believer (and endeavoring to practice this philosophy) that a horn should be used for a tone color change and not a range change. You should be able to play the same notes (both low and high) in a confident fashion with good tone on both instruments. Getting your own F tuba will no doubt prompt you to play just that horn all the time, resulting in some interesting and unique problems.

Keep in mind that the money you make will be largely based on your low register playing, and getting an orchestra job will most likely be based on low register playing (most of the hardest excerpts are low register monsters). This translates into a great deal of proficiency on CC tuba. Playing F makes low stuff a lot different, and I am not convinced playing well in the low register on F makes you a better low register big horn player.

[tubathig]

Don't do it. Wait to purchase the F. Weaknesses on the big horn will be magnified on the small horn. It really is not that much easier to play high on an F tuba than a CC tuba. Notes center better up there and it is slightly easier to get a round tone, but it takes the same amount of embouchure strength to get those notes. The only reason the F is more suited for solo work is that it sounds more clear and has more of what people expect in a solo sound.

I am a strong believer (and endeavoring to practice this philosophy) that a horn should be used for a tone color change and not a range change. You should be able to play the same notes (both low and high) in a confident fashion with good tone on both instruments. Getting your own F tuba will no doubt prompt you to play just that horn all the time, resulting in some interesting and unique problems.


Amen brother
Keep in mind that the money you make will be largely based on your low register playing, and getting an orchestra job will most likely be based on low register playing (most of the hardest excerpts are low register monsters). This translates into a great deal of proficiency on CC tuba. Playing F makes low stuff a lot different, and I am not convinced playing well in the low register on F makes you a better low register big horn player.

[andrew the tuba player]

Ok, thanks for te advice everyone. But I'd also like to add, as far as learning to play the bigger horns better, I have complete acess to a Conn 20J. (it lives at my house beause the band director hates the forward bell). And, i also Have acess to a conn 20K thats one of my favorite horns. So, i would still be able to practice and get good at the bigger hrons. And, as far as range goes (once again not to brag, but to add some input) i can play a 4 octive scale (one below the fundamental the fundamental and 2 above). I can do this on all of my horns.
Oh, and i can already play a Euphonium in both Bass clef and treble. I agree. Theyre my second favorite instrument.

[Lee Stofer]

Andrew,
Don't do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After about 30 years of playing professionally and having bought, sold and traded a lot of tuba gear (even before I got into the repair/sales business), there are times you just cannot see into the future and will sell a horn that you will soundly, profoundly regret selling, for years to come. Such is your Mirafone - I can see you kicking yourself repeatedly if you sell it anytime soon.

I like 20J and 20K Conn tubas and sousaphones as much as anyone. However, if you are headed to the college music performance major scene, neither of these will help you much. You don't try out for the basketball team in a football uniform, so if you are going to play the game, you must dress out in the standard gear. Standard gear = good 5-valve CC tuba in good condition, good standard mouthpiece, stand, metronome, pencil, method books, solos and good attitude. The instructor to whom you become a disciple should be the one to guide you towards your F tuba purchase further down the road.

One of the realities of life for the professional/aspiring professional tuba player is that it is extremely competetive. Another reality is that many musicians around you, even world-class conductors, listen with their eyes when it comes to your equipment. Another reality is that you do not sound the same to the audience as what you hear sitting behind the horn. There is a certain persona about Mirafone tubas that has made them so popular for nearly 50 years in this country. What I'm trying to say is that your Mirafone will get you much further in the business than trying to play an F tuba as your only instrument. I've played a lot of F tuba on several instruments. I can just about guarantee that any time you try to play a loud, low contrabass part on F tuba, you and your listeners will be disappointed. At least in this country, the F tuba, like the 6/4 orchestral monster contrabass tubas, is a specialty instrument. And, if you get an F tuba large-enough to sound and play somewhat like a contrabass tuba, you just defeated the purpose of having an F tuba in the first place, that is, to have the cleaner, lighter voice of a tuba that is halfway between the contrabass tuba and the euphonium.

If you do not wish to become a professional tubist, then please disregard this posting.

[eupher61]

to add, frankly, a 20K isn't a tuba that's going to get you many professional gigs.

IF a college you decide to attend has a good stable of contrabass tubas, maybe purchasing an F would make sense. Not many colleges aside from those with top tier tuba programs own many F tubas (and even then...).

Think of an F like a piccolo trumpet. Few trumpeters, aside from Maurice Andre', could make a living playing nothing but picc. Fewer would claim picc as their primary instrument. It's a needed part of the arsenal, but probably not the most important.

I was F only, aside from a souzie, for about 15 years. I've had a couple of BBbs and an Eb in the last 5 years, and while the F is still my favorite and most comfortable to me, there are times and places that the bigger bugle is just plain the right thing to have.

[iiipopes]

Since you already have a great 5-valve CC. KEEP IT!!!

Get used to the rotors. Remember Tommy Johnson's main horn in latter years was a 188. Close enough.

As you proceed in your development, if you find a piston CC you like better, at that point you can either add or trade. Then further down the road, as you start doing your "real" recitals (where it's just you, for a whole "feature length" concert program, and not the combined end of semester "demonstrate you actually learned something in your private lessons this semester student/faculty juries) and start getting nibbles for subbing for "real" gigs, then you can start looking for an appropriate F, since until you start getting calls for gigs, you're really not in the ball park yet.

I've been there. Never got a call for tuba. Got a few calls on bass guitar, but then again I live near Branson, MO. So here all these years later I never got an Eb or F, just bought what I knew I would play: Besson for fun, 186 for concert band, and a souzy for outdoor gigs.

And if the best happens, you still have at least one "do-it-all" tuba in your stable if one of the others goes awry for some reason, and if the worst happens, you still have a suitable instrument for all sorts of volunteer/hobby gigs/ensembles.

[jonesbrass]

Ok, thanks for te advice everyone. But I'd also like to add, as far as learning to play the bigger horns better, I have complete acess to a Conn 20J. (it lives at my house beause the band director hates the forward bell). And, i also Have acess to a conn 20K thats one of my favorite horns. So, i would still be able to practice and get good at the bigger hrons.

Andrew, no offense intended, but this is exactly my point in all of this. Don't divide your attention onto another instrument . . . yet. You've still got a ways to go in your playing (don't we all?), and most of that is based upon years and years of "woodshedding" on your big horn. Woodshedding is what you need, as well as performance experience. Seek out as many playing opportunities as you can. Do it all - dixieland gigs, brass quintet, T-E quartet, band, orchestra, brass choir, and "new" types of ensembles, too. Get out there and get as much performance experience as you can.
Eventually, I think you'll see that experienced players most often play other horns (any tuba other than their main one) because of: 1) tone color difference, and 2) "security" in other ranges of the horn (both dynamic and pitch). You probably have a much better horn in your 186 CC than most of us older guys did in high school. Enjoy what you have, save your pennies from gigs, and buy the "other" horn when you're really ready for it.

[andrew the tuba player]

Ok. Once again thanks for the advice. I know everyone wants to help. And, i thank you. I do want to get Pistons on whatever i have as a main horn. But, I really like the sound of the smaller Eb and F tubas. The mirafone is good, but the time consuming maitnance process on the rotors really hinder its use. Most of he time i play the 20j or k. I really like pistons. (plus i can get better range on them.) so yeah. (Just outta curiousity...what would an eepher be like?)

[Wyvern]

The mirafone is good, but the time consuming maitnance process on the rotors really hinder its use.

Rotary valves require very little maintenance. I doubt I spend more than 5 minutes per month on maintaining the rotors on my tubas. If the valves are troublesome - go and get your Mirafone professionally fixed. Then if you use it regularly, the rotors should be virtually trouble free. After all, Mirafone are renowned for their wonderful smooth valves.