Conn 2j or 3j with a 5th valve

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:18 pm

There was a 5 valved Conn 3j that was sold through Dillon Music's used tuba page quite some time back (maybe a couple years).

If I remember correctly, it had a silver bell, but was otherwise lacquered and the fifth valve was after the fourth.

I'm looking for a picture or pictures of this tuba or any other Conn 2j or 3j that's had a fifth valve added just to see how the valve was angled, how the linkage was done, etc.

If anybody save the picture of the one from Dillons or has such an instrument that they would be willing to take pictures of and send to me or post in this thread, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Christian

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:45 pm

I have access to a 2J all day long if I want it in the basement of my undergrad, and one of the guys in community band plays one as his main instrument (converted euph player). The only reason to put a 5th valve on one is if you must play low F's on it, and you can't get another horn. Even then, the "false" low F is not so grainy as to be unusable.

You're better off, if you have to mod it, to cut the outer tubes of the 1st valve slide a tad so you can push so mid line D is not flat, and still be able to pull to get that low F in tune.

Adding a 5th valve to a 2J or 3J is overkill.

Uncle Buck · Post by **Uncle Buck** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:56 pm

When I sold my 3J about ten years ago (still regret it), the last thing the buyer mentioned to me was that he immediately planned to add a 5th valve.

Since I had the check in hand, I didn't bother arguing with him. Maybe I should have talked him out of it and tried to split with him the savings.

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:01 pm

bloke wrote:.640" bore...??

Functional extended low range...??

Isn't it more like .656" Olds-sized tubing?

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:58 pm

Just for the record, I don't own a 2J, but I'm interested in acquiring one.

I don't know whether or not I'd want to have a 5th valve added or not. I'll make my own decisions there.

I'm just looking for pictures of horns where it has been done, that's all.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:42 pm

I don't know -- the picture doesn't look that different from the 2J when I pulled it out of the basement! It looks fine now. Now, if I ever get a call to be in a brass quintet....

quinterbourne · Post by **quinterbourne** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:11 am

Scooby Tuba wrote:
The only reason to put a 5th valve on one is if you must play low F's on it, and you can't get another horn. Even then, the "false" low F is not so grainy as to be unusable.
Or just mash down the second button thingy with the first and fourth...

1-4 is very sharp and 1-2-4 is very flat. I always had to play 1-4 and pull 1st/4th slide a foot.

Phil Dawson · Post by **Phil Dawson** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:46 pm

Lip one up or the other down - which ever one is closer. 1 and 4 always works fine for me if I open up the air steam and give it plenty of air.
Phil

Conn 2J CC · Post by **Conn 2J CC** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:37 pm

Hi Christian -

As a 2J owner myself, I wouldn't go to the trouble and expense of adding a 5th valve to my horn. I like my axe, but it's bore size is just .656". I confirmed this on the Conn Loyalist website, and with a digital caliper (whoever brought up those $20 digital calipers at Autozone, thank you!). With that small of a bore size, I'd rather invest the money for a 5th valve on my 2J into a larger bore horn that already has a 5th valve. The horn just doesn't produce much of a good, full tone from pedal Gb down to pedal D.

And, Iiipopes is right. The 1st valve slide could stand to be shortened so middle line D isn't flat. There would still be enough room to pull the 1st slide out to play pedal F in tune. Scooby Tuba's suggestion that a 56J's (or 52J's) flat wholestep 5th valve might work on a 2J may be true, but I wonder about that since those horns have .687" bores. For the record, the Conn website says the bore of the 4th valve of those horns is .734", and the 5th valve is .750".

Scooby also has a 2J for sale right now in Tubenet's For Sale forum. I wonder if the guy from Iowa who had one for sale on eBay about a month and a half ago sold that horn yet? We both posted to the Sep. 6th eBay forum thread on that one (thanks again for your help).

Like you said, in the end adding a 5th valve would be your call. This is just my humble opinion.

glangfur · Post by **glangfur** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:06 pm

I own a 3J, and I'll concur with the advice to leave it alone. I thought about adding a valve when I got mine, but once I started really practicing it, I discovered it has an outstanding false tone register. I can play a good low F by pulling the 1st valve slide, low E 234, and then Eb either with the pulled valve slide and 134 or as a false tone on just the first valve. Low D is 12, Db 23. I've even used the fourth valve for the soft pedal C near the end of the Lion King book - it was much easier to control this way than as a true pedal tone.

I think it helps that I play a fairly small mouthpiece with it (Cooley Helleberg) and that I'm primarily a bass trombone player, so I'm used to playing low notes against significant resistance. But I've also talked to students of Harvey Phillips, who used the false tones often on his small 4-valve Conn tubas.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:26 pm

Bob, bob, bob -- The outer tubes are longer than the inner tubes. I had just a fraction, probably only about 1/2 inch, taken off the outer upper tubes, so I still had the full length of the inner tubes to pull.

Conn 2J CC · Post by **Conn 2J CC** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:43 pm

Cutting the lower part of the 1st valve slide would make sense from a comfort and convenience standpoint. You'd still be able to grab the upper bow of the slide at the same place it's always been over the top bow of the horn. On the lower part of a 2J's 1st valve slide, you would only be able to cut about 1/8" before the post of a brace would be reached, and that's cutting into the base of that brace. If that's all you cut, the lower slide would not have to be shortened as well to able to still fit. Unless you were willing to move that brace or do without it, you would then have to cut the upper part of the slide. There's 5/8" cutting room in the upper part before you would reach the post of a brace (again, cutting into the brace's base). The upper slide is 3 7/8", and the shorter side of it's receiving tubes is 4 3/8", so shortening the upper slide maybe an 1/8" or 1/4" might be in order. Even if that was done, there would still be plenty of pulling room to get 1st valve pedal notes in tune.

As flat as the middle line D is on my horn, I'm considering this. I'm also considering soldering some sort of bumper system on one side of the 1st valve slide and it's receiving tube to eliminate the "clunk" sound when the slide is shoved all the way in. As thin as the metal of the receiving tubes are, I doubt putting rubber O rings on both sides of the slide is going to take care of this.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:10 pm

The braces are positioned on the 2J I had worked on in such a way that braces were not moved or otherwise altered, just that very top fraction of an inch of each of the outer tubes was cut off. Brought the D in nicely.

WakinAZ · Post by **WakinAZ** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:04 pm

Wasn't the 2/3J based on Harvey Phillips' old Conn CC? And didn't that particular horn have a 5th valve? Did any 2/3Js have a 5th valve from the factory? Just curious...

Eric "realizing that whether a horn of this size needs a 5th valve is a different question" L.