Sticky Piston Valves

Uncle Buck · Post by **Uncle Buck** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:46 pm

This poll is inspired by a recent comment by Neptune. Feel free to share your worst horror story.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:24 pm

Pistons can be finicky, especially when they are worn, dirty, or improperly lubricated. Sometimes mine seem sticky when I'm playing with them, but I have not had one stick while playing in more than three years.

I had a problem with outdoor performances when my Yamaha 621 was new (16 years ago), but that was a matter of finding an oil that would work in Texas heat (and that was Alisyn).

My rotary valves also stick from time to time when I'm just fiddling with them, but never while actually playing. They also require being clean and in good repair.

Switching to Hetmans for most of my tubas is part of the reason, I will admit. My answer would have been different back in the days when I used Al Cass.

Rick "who has both piston and rotary tubas and prefers tubas with good valves" Denney

Eric B · Post by **Eric B** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:29 pm

I don't have a story of having a valve stick at a critical time. I used to have nylon uniballs on my 186 about 5 years ago. I did not know that they were known for developing cracks over time. The post came loose from the nylon threading. Fortunately this occurred before the performance. I was able to fix it with the ole' reliable...Duck tape!

After checking on TubeNet I learned that many have had this issue. Upon closer examination, I noticed that several other uniballs had developed hairline stress cracks. After spending $200+ on 8 metal uniballs, I don't have that problem anymore.

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:51 pm

Having prompted this thread, I will tell of my experience which has obviously colored my view of piston valves.

Before going over to rotors, I used to have two British style Eb tubas, a Besson 981 and a B&S 3181. The valves on the Besson were the more reliable, only occasionally sticking. However the 3181 was a real pain! The valves seemed fine for the first year I had it, then they just started sticking while I was playing without warning. I would clean and oil the valves and they seemed fine with smooth movement. I would then go off to play in a gig and maybe half hour into the concert, either the 1st, or 2nd valve would stick down without warning. I would take out, re-oil and a while later it would often happen yet again. I would check the valves when I got back home and miraculously they would all be back working fine again. When I took the tuba to be checked over by the techie they would all work fine and the response would be "what's the problem, they are lovely and smooth". In the end I just gave up taking the 3181 out to gigs and only used it for home practice as I could just not rely on those valves despite checking, cleaning and oiling dozens of times (and trying different oils).

I had noted in the many concerts I had attended that trumpet and tuba players far too often have valve problems (and we are talking professionals in top venues here), while I never witnessed horn players having such problems with their rotary valves. So I eventually exchanged the 3181 for a rotary PT-6.

I continued using the Besson, but even that let me down. I was playing the last movement of the DvorÃ¡k Cello Concerto in an orchestral concert and the 3rd valve jammed down without warning and would not budge. I had to do my best to play the last 10 minutes with it in that state! I apologized to the bass trombone at the end of the piece to which his response was, "I am always having that problem when I play euphonium". Once again no technical problem could be found which would have caused this sticking. After that the 981 was only ever used for band playing (where there is usually another tuba to continue if a valve sticks) and I added a M-W 2040/5 Eb to my roster and have been quite contented with rotary valves ever since.

Rotors will stick if left unused, but in my experience never once lubricated in a performance.

bort · Post by **bort** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:11 pm

tubaphore wrote:The M-W 45S-LP that I just got a few weeks ago is sticking intermittently. I took everything apart yesterday to wipe off the valves and the cases and it's a lot better now. I'm using Fast on the valves and will be switching as soon as I find a better alternative (recommendations?).

A good cleaning and liberal use of Hetman #1 worked great to solve my sticky valve issues.

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:03 am

OK, I confess: it was my own *@() fault. I didn't get the beer all cleaned out after the last county fair gig, and at the next outdoor gig as we were getting ready to play the 1st valve locked up good until I unscrewed it and took a cloth soaked in valve oil and scraped all the beer residue out of the 1st valve casing. Then everything was fine.

tubatom91 · Post by **tubatom91** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:24 am

all I will say is the newer yamaha valve guides that are made of plastic are probably the worst feature on the instrument. Those caused a few of the more 'memorable' experiences i've had with sticky pistons. (talking about the YBB-321).

corbasse · Post by **corbasse** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:46 am

Neptune wrote: I had noted in the many concerts I had attended that trumpet and tuba players far too often have valve problems (and we are talking professionals in top venues here), while I never witnessed horn players having such problems with their rotary valves. So I eventually exchanged the 3181 for a rotary PT-6.

Rotors will stick if left unused, but in my experience never once lubricated in a performance.

You''l have to pay closer attention:

I've had plenty of times that a valve on my french horn got stuck, and know plenty of stories from colleagues. It's easier to continue playing though, since most of the time we play so far up the harmonics there are loads of alternative fingerings.

I have to agree though that it's less likely. The pistons on my tuba need generous oiling almost every day to ensure proper working whereas my french horn will get a drop of oil maybe every month or so, if I can be bothered and I don't forget..

I've had it sit in its case for 3 whole months once and the valves still were fine!

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:47 am

corbasse wrote:You''l have to pay closer attention: I've had plenty of times that a valve on my french horn got stuck, and know plenty of stories from colleagues. It's easier to continue playing though, since most of the time we play so far up the harmonics there are loads of alternative fingerings.

Then, maybe my original assessment was flawed?

However, the fact remains that in 3 years playing five different rotary tubas - not once have I been let down by the valves during hundreds of gigs and rehearsals.

I cannot help giving a slight smile when I see one of my brass section mates cursing about a sticking piston

- often saying "that is why I play a rotary tuba!"

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:32 am

tubaphore wrote:The M-W 45S-LP that I just got a few weeks ago is sticking intermittently. I took everything apart yesterday to wipe off the valves and the cases and it's a lot better now. I'm using Fast on the valves and will be switching as soon as I find a better alternative (recommendations?).

Try Hetmans.

And remember that new piston casings must have time to build up a uniform layer of oxide. Frequent use is the best procedure, plus keeping it clean and oiled. DON'T, however, polish the insides of the casings to bright brass, or you'll have to start the process over again.

Rick "13" Denney

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:43 am

With apologies to Jonathon, there are only a few reasons why piston valves stick:

1. They are dirty.

2. They are improperly lubricated (despite traditional British practice as reported by Bevan, plus other unrelated evidence, saliva is not a good lubricant for piston valves).

3. They are deformed from damage, or the casings are deformed.

4. They are new and the oxides inside the casing are still rough, having not yet been burnished down.

5. They are improperly fitted into their casings.

6. They are severely worn, though in my experience the wear has to be quite severe--enough to have worn the plating off the valves so that you have brass against brass.

Assuming the valves were properly fitted by an expert, and the instrument is undamaged and properly constructed, many of these causes should not affect most tuba players.

My Yamaha valves were sticky outdoors in the heat, because the Monel expanded a bit too much and the valves were very tight. Once I had them lapped by an expert, and when I switched to an oil that wasn't affected by the heat, I had no further problems.

Do the British tuba and euphonium players still pour milk through a new instrument? I seem to recall this and other mythical (and mystical) practices being reported over the years by our friends from the other side of the pond. I would expect such practices to lead to all sorts of problems.

Rick "considering the possibilities" Denney

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:58 am

No apologies required Rick! However, none of your list would provide the answer to my previous 3181 problem.

The only theory put to me (since I parted with the tuba, so cannot check) which sounds feasible, at least to me would be for the valve to have too sharp a leading edge and as I played it wiped the inside of the casing dry of oil. That might explain it sticking after some time playing and working fine again after being left a while.

I used to sit next to an old euphonium player in wind band who always used saliva as a lubricant on his old Imperial - never bought a bottle of oil in his life.

I have never known anyone pour milk through a new instrument. Maybe it was once done, or is just an old brass players myth.

jonesbrass · Post by **jonesbrass** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:05 am

I have had bad experienced with both piston and rotary horns, but pistons, at least for me, have been FAR WORSE. I've had a linkage break in the middle of performance on an old rotary BBb, but never had one stick. Since then, I always carry a small repair kit (with spare linkage parts, screwdriver, etc.) and have never had that happen again.
Unfortunately for me, I've NEVER played a piston tuba for any length of time that didn't stick. Sousaphones, tubas, didn't matter. The piston tubas I used through elementary and high school were the worst, and the brand-new army-issue sousaphone I used always stuck too. For me, that's the reason why I've never seriously considered buying a piston horn for myself. YMMV. I still hope for a piston horn that works for me, though.

Conn 2J CC · Post by **Conn 2J CC** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:04 pm

Rick's problem with his Yamaha valves sticking outdoors in the heat because the Monel expanded a bit too much reminded me of hearing Gene Porkorny telling of a concert back in the 1980s. He was performing in an German opera house with the St. Louis Symphony. The place was packed, so it was getting really hot in there. He was playing on a Hirschbrunner Tuba that had a flat whole step 5th rotary valve. The synthetic rotor inside of it expanded with the heat while he was playing on stage and got stuck in the down position, refusing to come back up. He had no choice but to do some fast and fancy refingering of everything he had left to play, to not only play the right notes, but get them in tune too.

After the concert, as the temperature came down the valve popped back up. Fortunately, the next stop on their tour was the town Hirschbrunner's factory is located in. They took care of the problem for him.

I hope I got this story right. It's been 20 years since I heard it. My apologies to Gene if I didn't.

Tubaguy56 · Post by **Tubaguy56** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:25 pm

I really must have just had freakish pistons all my life.....Honestly, most of my experiences with pistons have been good, if anything rotors have given me more trouble. *shrug*

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:30 pm

Neptune wrote:The only theory put to me (since I parted with the tuba, so cannot check) which sounds feasible, at least to me would be for the valve to have too sharp a leading edge and as I played it wiped the inside of the casing dry of oil. That might explain it sticking after some time playing and working fine again after being left a while.

A piston that wipes off the oil might be caused by one of several things. One is that the piston is just too tight, and it isn't quite straight enough or the material isn't quite right for being that tight. That's the Yamaha problem with Monel valves, in my view. And I seem to recall that Besson used Monel, too, at least at one time.

Maybe the oil is too thick for the valves. Hetmans sells three viscosities, and all three are still very light oils.

If it's because of the shape of the piston, then I put that in the category of being improperly fitted. But I'm having a hard time picturing it.

Rick "who really hopes the milk thing is indeed a myth" Denney

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:16 am

Rick Denney wrote:If it's because of the shape of the piston, then I put that in the category of being improperly fitted. But I'm having a hard time picturing it.

Well, as I have long since parted company with the offending tuba, we will now never know! (incidentally, I mainly used Al Cass oil)

I am entirely happy with rotors, so I'm now likely to stay with them. When I recently tried a friend's 3+1 piston Eb, after a year away from such configuration, I even had trouble with hand co-ordination using the left 4th valve - and you guessed it, a valve stuck on me within a couple minutes playing!

(despite him having just come from playing it in a gig)

Jonathan "who has decided that pistons and him obviously don't get along"

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:49 pm

Neptune wrote:Jonathan "who has decided that pistons and him obviously don't get along"

Sounds to me like proximity effect.

(Proximity effect is the standard response of an electronics technician to a request for a diagnosis when the cause is unknown--or when they don't really want to say what they think the cause is, heh, heh.)

Rick "who has caused lots of proximity effect over the years" Denney

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:01 pm

I've never had a rotor stick; but they do slow down, giving ample warning that sticking could be imminent. Always immediately fixed by a few drops of oil down the slide tubes.

MA

windshieldbug · Post by **windshieldbug** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:04 pm

If a clock-spring rotary valve breaks it's spring, you're screwed.

But one doesn't have to remove rotors daily to lubricate them... every time you unscrew a piston valve and remove it to oil it you chance mishandling it (or someone dropping a tympanum on your foot, or throwing a viola at your head).

Because of the larger surface area to wear, quite a bit more IS worn, along with guides, casings, and ports.

Just call me risk-adverse...

Sticky Piston Valves

What is your experience with sticky piston valves?

Sticky Piston Valves