Bob1062 wrote:I seem to remember reading that George Roberts DID occasionally play a double valve, at least when he did the Lion King.
I consider a double valve "necessary" for not only low B, but low C too. If you have to pull your valve slide all the way out and sit at the end of the slide, your horn doesn't "really" have that note. And unfortunately, low B naturals in bass are more common than the B natural an octave down for Bb tubas
That said, here is Sven Larsson playing down to a triple pedal Bb on what I assume is a single valve horn (I assume that he used that, as he did for most of his life until recently)- http://www.wela.nu/TriplePedal.wav
The George Roberts model as well as some others of the same genre had a second valve built into the valve slide. This way, if the player did not need the valve, they simply removed the valve and slide section, and replaced it with a normal F valve slide.
Some of these were operated by string, while others had a mechanical linkage.
Well i see the 2nd valve debate as the same as the 5th valve an a tuba debate. Do you really need it? For 90% of the music you will ever play, probably not but when that 10% comes up you had better have it.
I use an independant double valve because I like the flexibility and alternate slide position options that it affords me. I would like to buy a single valve bass sometime for those gigs when I do not need the 2nd valve. But really there are not taht many. A Bach 50B would be great. (Anyone have one laying around they are not using?)
But if I am going to have only one bass bone it needs a second valve.
ken k
B&H imperial E flat tuba
Mirafone 187 BBb
1919 Pan American BBb Helicon
1924 Buescher BBb tuba (Dr. Suessaphone)
2009 Mazda Miata
1996 Honda Pacific Coast PC800
Tom Mason wrote:
5. I like Hagmann valves more than Thayers. Easier access to clean and maintainance. Seriously check them out.
Tom Mason
Amen! I've owned my Hagmann valved Besson for 5 years now and never had the first problem. Played every day for 5 years with little maintanance and 0 problems. The Hagmanns are at least 1/3 quicker and 95% as free blowing as the Thayers. The rest of the horn plays wonderfully too. It is too bad Besson is in the shape it is in. You can occaisionally find a used one and usually cheap. They just don't have the reputation of some of the others. I play next to two of Steve Shires' creations in trombone choir and IMHO the Besson is their equal.
I am fortunate to have a great job that feeds my family well, but music feeds my soul.
Amen! I've owned my Hagmann valved Besson for 5 years now and never had the first problem. Played every day for 5 years with little maintanance and 0 problems. The Hagmanns are at least 1/3 quicker and 95% as free blowing as the Thayers. The rest of the horn plays wonderfully too. It is too bad Besson is in the shape it is in. You can occaisionally find a used one and usually cheap. They just don't have the reputation of some of the others. I play next to two of Steve Shires' creations in trombone choir and IMHO the Besson is their equal.
I have the Bach 50 A3L. Llike the Besson 943, you are getting the freeblowing horn for a lot less than a Thayer equiped instrument. List for brand spankin new runs around $1200 less than Thayer horns.
Elephant, I would also like to theorize that he has this setup so he doesn't have to deal with the weight of the double valve all of the time. I've heard from many bass trombonists that stress on the left hand is a huge concern. Must be why they often don't put the horn on their face until the last possible second before their entry. Talk about stress from where I'm sitting!
He only drags the double Thayer to work when he needs the notes that it can give him. Usually he has the single Thayer.
Agreed. After bringing home the Getzen 1052, the first thing I did was remove the dependent valve on my Holton TR185. For situations in which I don't know the music, I'll bring the Getzen, but knowing what I'll be playing, I'll bring the appropriate setup. And on big band gigs, it's a no brainer - I take the Holton.
I have to admit, however, if I was limited to one bass trombone, it would have two valves.
George
Bass Trombone
NIH Philharmonic
Washington Sinfonietta
tbn.al wrote:There are not many B's in the jazz repertoire.
Old-school, traditional big-band arrangements, you are absolutely correct. However, there are a lot of newer arrangements that are full of them.
I've wondered if the recent popularity of 5-string basses with low B strings has had any effect on this.
For myself I don't have enough time to spend with the bass trombone to get comfortable with the weight and balance of the double rotor horns. I think it really takes some serious time to get used to them. On a long gig with a double rotor horn my left arm and shoulder would give out long before my chops.
I play my single rotor 50B with the F attachment slide pulled to E pretty much full time. If I had a steady bass 'bone gig, though, I'd get a double rotor horn. I personally really like the dependent valve Getzen 1062.
Thanks for the advice everyone....really helps me get my feet a little dirty. I am going in a few weeks down to rayburns in boston to try a few things out. Unfortunately all they have is Bach, so there won't be much to compare it too.....but it should help either way.
mTaUrBkA wrote:Thanks for the advice everyone....really helps me get my feet a little dirty. I am going in a few weeks down to rayburns in boston to try a few things out. Unfortunately all they have is Bach, so there won't be much to compare it too.....but it should help either way.
The 50B3O is a nice horn and there is one listed on the for sale forum for a good price. I was thinking about getting it myself, but I had better not.....
The 50B3O sounds like a trombone not a tuba on a stick....
ken k
B&H imperial E flat tuba
Mirafone 187 BBb
1919 Pan American BBb Helicon
1924 Buescher BBb tuba (Dr. Suessaphone)
2009 Mazda Miata
1996 Honda Pacific Coast PC800
the elephant wrote:He only drags the double Thayer to work when he needs the notes that it can give him. Usually he has the single Thayer.
the elephant wrote:
Right. I was implying that when I said "when he needs the notes that it can give him" because he can trim the weight if he is not playing anything that needs the second Thayer. And most of the bass bone rep only really needs a single F valve. He got a double Thayer for a while and hated it. The weight bugged him quite a bit. The double Thayer section that can be taken down to a single is a really great thing to have. His having a nice, single rotor section that can also be used is just gravy for him.
Elephant,
I do think that I probably should have gotten, or maybe did kind of get, what you were implying. Let's just say that I wrote what I wrote to clarify it for those who are as equally inept as I
I decided on independent valves after trying some horns out the other day. Another question has arised though, and unfortunately the trombone specialist wasn't in the day I went to the store.... as far as Jazz playing goes would anyone think strongly for 9.5 inch bell vs. 10.5 inch bell, or shouldn't I expect a huge difference. All of the horns I played were 9.5 inch, but chances are I am going to end up buying used online, and was wodnering how much of a difference to expect from the same horn I played and liked (Bach 50B3O w/ 9.5 inch bell) to the same horn in 10.5 inch bell.
My playing time on 10.5 inch bells is very limited, but all other things being equal, I would pick a 9.5 over a 10.5 bell. Both my Getzen and Holton trombones have a 9.5 inch bell.
I tried a Weril with 10.5 bell once and thought the sound to be woofy and uncentered.
I won't say how long ago, but once back in the twentieth century, I got to play a Holton TR169 with 10.5 inch bell. That was one marvelous trombone and I wouldn't hesitate to play it again. If only I had owned it (sighs). But...I digress.
I used to have a Holton TR183 that had a 9 inch bell. Wonderfully centered sound that could have punched through metal. I'd have been reticent to have taken it to symphony rehearsal, but it was great for big band work.
Finally, I think a 9.5 inch bell is prevalent, and that you'd almost have to actively seek a different size bell if you were buying a used bass trombone.
George
Bass Trombone
NIH Philharmonic
Washington Sinfonietta
My Jupiter has the 10.5" bell and I love it. The sound on this horn is very centered and just punches through the big band. Understand though that this is my only experience playing a bass bone for any length of time (had this horn for over a year and played about 2 dozen gigs on it). I like the bigger bell and it serves my purposes very well.
If many people believe that a 10.5 inch bell is unfocused, why are they produced? What benefits do they serve? There must be a reason...just a reason that I am not aware of.
