Cimbasso prototype in action

Sam Gnagey · Post by **Sam Gnagey** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:53 pm

I've completed my latest project and have it playing. We'll be doing some more Verdi next week when it will get more work and more $ for me in doubling-CHA-CHING!. It's in Eb with 4-piston valves. Plays great and has a really well matched sound to the trombone section. They even say they like it! Here's a picture of me playing it on a run-out concert at the world-famous Marshmallow Festival in Ligonier, IN. Photo credit to Andy Loree.

Chuck Jackson · Post by **Chuck Jackson** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 10:21 pm

RIGHT ON Sam, what a beaut!!!!!!

Chuck

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:56 am

Wonderful approach!

Parts probably pilfered from alto horn, baritone, and front action tuba or sousaphone.

Please let's have a thorough photo documentation and parts' genealogy!

Is the belt a matter of dampening or a matter of being hung from some sort of stand?

If I had your technical skills, which I obviously don't, I would realise my envision of the poor boy's (that's me) BBb cimbasso:

Get a lot of cylindrical tubing and an adequate valve section, and then let the wide receiver of the main tuning slide through the bell of my YEP641 double as bell section of that contrabass cimbasso. It would take some stand to hold it. Maybe a Wenger chair could do the job.

Klaus

Sam Gnagey · Post by **Sam Gnagey** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:34 pm

Here are some details and both anterior and posterior photos of the cimbasso. Bore is .687. Assembled from King sousaphone and Bach marching baritone parts.
I plan on building them in F and CC also. Those will have 5-valves. Subsequent instruments will have a vertical axis valve cluster rather than the diagonal treatment of this one. Since this was an experimental prototype I used a valve cluster that I had constructed for an earlier Eb tuba project that didn't pan out.

tubacdk · Post by **tubacdk** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:17 pm

PhilW. wrote:Really? I thought that the cimbasso was in the euphonium's range, but in C.
Whatever. I play the tuba, not the damn cimbasso.

nope, cimbassi are made to play in the tuba range. basically they're a tuba valve section with a contrabass trombone bell stuck on after the tuning slide.

tubacdk · Post by **tubacdk** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:44 pm

codytuba wrote:Sorry to dissapoint, but has anyone seen the Tu-bone prototype yet? It has been in the works for years now and plays in Bb. It is supposed to play like a bass bone really, and less like a cimbasso, but with the appropriate mouthpiece and bore alterations, you could open up the sound quite a bit. Thoughts.......

um....... can anyone tell me what the difference is between the tu-bone

and a rotary cimbasso?

they look virtually identical to me. I think the tu-bone is a re-named cimbasso being aimed at high school band directors.

-ck

Jay Bertolet · Post by **Jay Bertolet** » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:22 pm

They sure look the same to me. Aside from the fact that the TuBone doesn't have 5 valves, and that it has those extra loops in the main bugle (to bring it into the same octave as the standard BBb tuba), it looks identical to my Meinl-Weston Cimbasso. I'd be very curious to know what the difference really is. I'm also intrigued by Codytuba's comments regarding opening up the sound. To me, the cimbasso is very much constricted in sound compared to the tuba I usually play. As I understand it, that constricted sound is the purpose of the design. Providing a bass brass voice that blended better with the trombone sound was the purpose Verdi had in mind for the cimbasso and the biggest advantage to the instrument. Are the TuBone makers intending their instrument to be a completely different animal from that, with the capability to sound less like a trombone and more like a tuba?

In any event, it sure is a familiar looking contraption.

Sam Gnagey · Post by **Sam Gnagey** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 9:06 am

I'm sorry, but the distinction between a tu-bone(if a playing example does exist) and a cimbasso totally escapes me. The cimbassi that I've played are not very open playing and the is plenty of edge to the sound. I'd say that the illustration of tu-bone is a BBb cimbasso in fact. The concept of the cimbasso is to match the timbre of the trombone section. Playing one requires using a trombone-like movement of air and concept of sound.

Jay Bertolet · Post by **Jay Bertolet** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:46 pm

Exactly my thinking Sam.

lowbrass-freak · Post by **lowbrass-freak** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:47 pm

I don't think Kalison has a cc cimbasso.
I know for sure they have a piston valve F cimbasso.

Jay Bertolet · Post by **Jay Bertolet** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:30 pm

Dale, my belief is that you're very wrong about Verdi. Even a backwater place like South Florida has an opera company that does at least one Verdi opera every season. And there are two opera companies here. Last season, three of the operas performed were Verdi. After 18 years in the pit for the Florida Grand Opera/Greater Miami Opera, I have complete cimbasso parts for every opera Verdi ever wrote (that was at least published) and is regularly performed. Maybe Verdi never caught on in your neck of the woods? Down here, Verdi is big business with selllouts every time we do one of his operas.

I've already said plenty about the advantages of cimbasso in that repertoire so I won't launch into that again. I will say that the cimbasso is definitely making a comeback (one of the reasons I bought mine), you see many more of them these days than even 5 years ago, and conductors are actually asking me if I have one when they conduct operas that I'm involved in. It's gotten to the point here that I bring the cimbasso and conductors don't seem surprised at all to see it. To me, that speaks volumes.

Jay Bertolet · Post by **Jay Bertolet** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:55 pm

It's a good point Joe, perhaps I tend to see things through my own personal perspective as a professional orchestral player. Even the orchestra used to do at least one opera excerpts concert every year. Perhaps it's just my good fortune to not have run into any conductor that told me to leave the cimbasso at home. It's so much fun to play (hard work too) and so rewarding in the final product that I hope I never see such a conductor.

I'm not even going to speculate about the use of a cimbasso in a broadway show. Some notions are simply too horrible to contemplate.

scottmendoker · Post by **scottmendoker** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:23 pm

I've had the pleasure of working for the New York Grand Opera and Maestro Vincent La Selva for several years. I've played ALL of Verdi's operas during consecutive summers in Central Park under the project name: "Viva Verdi"
http://www.newyorkgrandopera.org/viva.htm
Except for Macbeth, Otello and Don Carlo, they could have easily been played on cimbasso. Actually, I did play some on cimbasso when I had the opportunity to borrow one from Meinl Weston (in F)
It's true - the cimbasso does and should sound like a bass trombone on steroids. I especially liked the reaction of my stringed (strung?) colleagues when I brought this thing in. I was VERY tempted to put cross-hairs on the bell but, alas, it was only a borrowed instrument.
Lots of fun to play, the trombone players loved it - I was one of THEM - and even the conductor didn't wince too often. Sam's cimbasso looks great and I applaud the effort/talent that went into creating it.

Scott Mendoker

Steve Marcus · Post by **Steve Marcus** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:27 pm

scottmendoker wrote:Except for Macbeth, Otello and Don Carlo, they could have easily been played on cimbasso.

So for those three Verdi operas, is F or CC tuba more appropriate than cimbasso?

scottmendoker · Post by **scottmendoker** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:02 am

Otello surprised me. First of all, we did these things on 3 rehearsals and couldn't get the music in advance. La Selva is VERY specific as to how he wants things played - the majority of the usual cuts in these operas were played, for example. Anyhow, Otello is, in my opinion, a CC tuba part - as is the Requiem. The others could and should be played on F.

Just as a footnote - tradition at the Met is that most of those Verdi operas are played on trombone - perhaps Chris Hall could chime in, here.

Scott Mendoker

Chuck Jackson · Post by **Chuck Jackson** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:47 am

Nice looking horn at a great price, but I can only imagine the mark-up.

Chuck

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:41 pm

Doc wrote: Check this out:

http://www.tubaexchange.com/Kalisonsale.htm

Doc

Well, if I win the lottery and can get Dillon's to sell me one....heh.

MA

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:18 am

So I'm currious now. I though a cimbasso was a tuba ranged baritone/ valve trombone.

So what would you call a Bb, cylindrical bore horn in the range of a tuba?
Wether it has an upright bell (ala baritone) or a forward bell(ala trombone).

You the bell arrngment make it a different horn then?

Either way, I want cylindrical bore horn, in the tuba range, I'd prefer a trombone style bell on it..

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:43 am

LV wrote: The front-facing-over-the-shoulder version is a recent development, but is essentially the same horn with a different wrap. Tuba range, very cylindrical bore, blends well with trombones.

Looks like what I want. Well, move the valves to the front first

Now to get the cash...

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:34 am

I've got one of these strange Italian basses (made by Orsi):

It's in Eb and has a tiny 0.495 bore and takes a tenor-shank trombone mouthpiece. For the bore size, it's surprisingly free-blowing, but takes some real technique getting a good sound down in the lower register.

I can't be sure even what the "authentic" idea of a cimbasso is (maybe a six-valve bimbonifono is also a cimbasso?), but the examples I've seen all have fairly small bores.

TubeNet

Cimbasso prototype in action

Cimbasso prototype in action

Re: Cimbasso