wind bands - clarity of sound

[Lyle]

Hi, The RIWE approaches the 'one-on-a-part' except for clarinets & flutes. IMHO this helps with clarity over any civic/community band I have recently heard. Our director stresses 'rythmn & tempo' as well as listening to the others in the ensemble. This really helps. Also with fewer players the diligence of knowing the intonation of you & your instrument, & not just the tuning note is very critical to clarity.

[Uncle Buck]

Sorry for posting a response that doesn't have a great deal of substance, but this is one of the best new topics I've seen on this forum in a long time.

I certainly can't disagree with anything Bloke said. While I was reading his post, I was contemplating the kind of music I enjoy listening to and realized that for me, symphonic bands and wind ensembles fall below both orchestras and chamber ensembles (brass, woodwind, or string).

I think that when I listen to band music, the pleasure I derive from it is more related to the fun memories and experiences I have had playing in bands than to the kind of musical experience I have listening to other genres. I certainly enjoy playing in a band - I just don't enjoy listening to one nearly as much.

Added as an edit:
As I read my post, I realized there is one type of band music that is the exception to what I have said - marches. A band is PERFECT for a good march, no other ensemble works as well.

I remember one day in my freshman music theory class where someone mentioned an uncle who thought Sousa was a great composer. The whole class gave an academic laugh, and we then proceeded with our discussion of weighty musical matters.

I've always believed that if I ever get to a point in my life where a good, well-played march doesn't bring a smile to my face, it is time to ask someone to shoot me.

[windshieldbug]

On the same page, bloke.

When I was in school, I lobbied the Wind Ensemble's director to go with "simply" one on a part.

Because of less competition for sound (wave cancelling, even with the best musicians), one can hear most of the ensemble more clearly, making it easier to play with, process, and comprehend.

It takes a masterful large ensemble to overcome this. And MOST music is writen and scored so that you want to hear the delicate balances (like anything, there are very notable exceptions to this rule, though... ).

Sousa wrote great band music, but then again, mostly he was composing for a large band. I would rank him up with the most successful composers that I've encountered, academics and all!

[numbnutstubist]

I've been with a director the last few years who has been dealing with this kind of issue. But, instead of taking players one to a part, he just balances certain sections under others. It's not the most practical thing for an ensemble that is any less than college level, but it's pretty interesting.

The best way that I can think of articulating his ideas is to say that music is like a 12 layer cake, and each layer has a specific flavor. Now, some flavors are naturally stronger than others (i.e. the low brass sound will usually overpower the low reed sound) and, consequently, need to be balanced below the weaker flavors in order to create a cake in which all the flavors are in balance.

From there, it's all about "tastefully" emphasizing the flavors that you find the most attractive but still not throwing the ensemble out of balance.

The only unfortunate parts about this system of balance is that it relies on near perfection of articulation and pitch (only a problem for the younger ensembles, as stated earlier, but even experienced groups will experience whoop-tee-doos with those now and again,) and the tubists are often forced to play what I call quadrapissimo most of the time. As a tubist, the system can makes things pretty boring, but the overall sound is very cool.

[Bandmaster]

There is nothing like watching and listening to a good parade band playing the heck out of a good march on a sunny fall afternoon. The link below is to a high quality video of one of the best I have ever seen.

Rancho Bernardo High School - San Diego

[Todd S. Malicoate]

There is nothing like watching and listening to a good parade band playing the heck out of a good march on a sunny fall afternoon. The link below is to a high quality video of one of the best I have ever seen.

Rancho Bernardo High School - San Diego

Thanks for the link, Dave...truly exceptional!

[OldsRecording]

yea, i definitely think 1 to 2 players on a part is the right way to go for bands. i hate going to district band or whatever and playing with a 180+ group. sounds like a big blotch of mud.

my perfect wind ensemble would be something like this:
4 flutes
5 clarinets(one for epher/alto/both if there's a part)
1 bass clairnet
2 oboes
2 bassons
2 alto sax
1 tenor sax
1 bari sax
5 trumpets
4 horns
3-4 bones
2-3 euphs
2-4 tubas
4-5 percusionists

Only changes I would make:
Instead of the 5 trumpets, go with 3 cornets, 2 trumpets. Sounds petty, but it actually makes a difference. And, I'd also go with just 2 euphs, 2 tubas. Also, 3 oboes (1 doubling english horn) and I'd also add EEb and BBb contra clarinets because they sound cool.

[bort]

Another general question -- with more than 2 tubas, would it be preferred that there is a bass tuba in with the contrabasses?

[windshieldbug]

Another general question -- with more than 2 tubas, would it be preferred that there is a bass tuba in with the contrabasses?

In British Brass Band parlance, yes.

Other than that, any horn that is NOT absolutely in tune with the others only weakens the sound, not adds to it...

[Rick Denney]

We have mostly one to a part in our band, and we still suck. But I don't think that disproves your theory, heh, heh.

We have:

5 flutes
4 clarinets
1 bass clarinet
1 oboe
1 or 2 alto sax
1 tenor sax
1 bari sax (not always)
1 bassoon
3 horns
3 trombones (sometimes 4)
4 trumpets (sometimes 5)
1 euphonium
2 tubas
3 percussion

This is, for the most part, one to a part, given that many modern wind band compositions split the tuba part in places. We would like to have more people.

Now, my take on the main differences between band and orchestra:

1. In orchestra, everyone knows that only the instruments required by the composer will be used. No tuba part? Tuba player goes home. In band, everyone expects to play in every piece, and the composers know they have to accommodate that expectation.

2. Band war horses seem to try to use all the sections all the time. Orchestra works, even the war horses, sometimes use sections quite sparingly. In band, one would never see a tacet movement in a multi-movement work, for example.

3. Wind band players often ignore markings that enforce fewer players, such as "solo" or "1 only" or "first stand only" or "only when bass clarinet not available". This is frustrating, and in places where the composer wants the spare sound, the effect is lost. "I came to play, not to count rests." Bah!

4. When band players can't play softly enough to make the music sound right, they play anyway. Most amateurs (myself included) can't really play that soft and maintain good tone and pitch, but they can choose to lay out when it's musically necessary. They rarely do.

That, as much as anything, explains the mezzo-mezzo band sound.

Some composers of band works adopt an orchestral policy and these works often have the transparency (to use Wade's word, though clarity works for me) that most band works lack, at least when the band follows the composer's direction.

There is not an amateur wind band in existence that can play with the nearly perfect intonation routinely achieved by even moderately good professional orchestras. That fact supports the thesis.

Rick "relishing those few experiences of playing in groups with good dynamic control, pitch, sound, rhythm, and musicianship" Denney

[Wyvern]

Another general question -- with more than 2 tubas, would it be preferred that there is a bass tuba in with the contrabasses?

I think one bass tuba works with two or more tubas. It provides the clarity to the bass line and is better on the upper part in divisi. That is what I have been playing with the Hampshire Ex-Serviceman's Concert Band the last 12 years - me on Eb and the other tuba on BBb.

However, since I recently joined the Hampshire Police Band where there is already an Eb, I am playing CC (my PT-20, or Neptune according to venue) which really adds a good foundation against just bass tubas as was in the band previously (which is quite common in the UK). This has received good comments.

Jonathan

[kingrob76]

3. Wind band players often ignore markings that enforce fewer players, such as "solo" or "1 only" or "first stand only" or "only when bass clarinet not available". This is frustrating, and in places where the composer wants the spare sound, the effect is lost. "I came to play, not to count rests." Bah!

4. When band players can't play softly enough to make the music sound right, they play anyway. Most amateurs (myself included) can't really play that soft and maintain good tone and pitch, but they can choose to lay out when it's musically necessary. They rarely do.

Those two factors are the biggest reasons why I find performing with Concert Bands to be frustrating and generally don't seek out those opportunities. I'm helping out a group in a couple weeks where their two regular tuba players cannot perform the concert, so I'm subbing and I'll be the only tuba. At rehearsal last week, one of the guys shows up. "Great, glad he's here, gives me someone to make wisecracks with" I think to myself, but I made the mistake of asking him to allow me to play all the 1 only / cues by myself since I'll have to do them at the gig. So what does he do? He mows through the entire page of every piece, even playing cues for instruments that were there, and playing them fairly loudly. About half way through the rehearsal I asked him about it, and literally he said "well, since I'm not going to be doing the concert I thought I'd just play everything anyway".

Huh?

He's not a bad guy, he's not doing it to be a jerk, he just feels he's *ENTITLED* to play everything, regardless, simply because he *didn't come here to count rests*. And this is a pretty good group, comprised mostly of retired service band players (with exceptions, this guy being one of them). Guys like this should be made to play Dvorak 9 every day for a year.

If you, Mr. Unknown-to-me Reader, are one of those guys, Stop It. Now. And tell your friends to stop it, too.

Yes, I favor the smaller instrumentation of Wind Ensembles over larger Concert Bands, but one of the keys to the clarity of sound thing HAS to be respecting the markings and not playing selfishly. Rests are part of the music, just like the notes. Soft is part of the music, not just loud.

[TubaRay]

3. Wind band players often ignore markings that enforce fewer players, such as "solo" or "1 only" or "first stand only" or "only when bass clarinet not available". This is frustrating, and in places where the composer wants the spare sound, the effect is lost. "I came to play, not to count rests." Bah!

4. When band players can't play softly enough to make the music sound right, they play anyway. Most amateurs (myself included) can't really play that soft and maintain good tone and pitch, but they can choose to lay out when it's musically necessary. They rarely do.

he just feels he's *ENTITLED* to play everything, regardless, simply because he *didn't come here to count rests*.

If you, Mr. Unknown-to-me Reader, are one of those guys, Stop It. Now. And tell your friends to stop it, too.

one of the keys to the clarity of sound thing HAS to be respecting the markings and not playing selfishly. Rests are part of the music, just like the notes. Soft is part of the music, not just loud.

I completely agree. Apologies for heavily editing your post.

[MartyNeilan]

FWIW I used to absolutely dread "1 only" parts in region or allstate band. It would lead to massive infighting within the section over who would play it, no matter who the section leader was.
At college, we tried to be fair and systematically rotate those parts among the section, and to tailor them to the strengths / limitations of each player, but there were still the rare times where you could sense ill will.
My personal pet peeve is tubas playing string bass pizz parts in older wind ensemble literature. Very few can ever get the style right, and so ofter think pizzicato means playing loudly and as absolutely as short as possible, with each note loudly tongue-stopped

[Wyvern]

he just feels he's *ENTITLED* to play everything, regardless, simply because he *didn't come here to count rests*.

It is the difference between musical professionalism and just coming along for a good time playing. That is the trouble with a lot of band players - they don't put the music first!

I am lucky in my band that the other tuba always drops out and leaves the "one" and "solo" passages to me. In fact he even does that when it is not marked if one tuba is evidently enough, such as accompanying a solo.

[windshieldbug]

Sorry Wade

Mike "who's also, it seems, into heavily editing, no matter how obvious the result " Keller

[tbn.al]

For all the reasons listed before I have ceased playing with groups where there are more than one on a part. I just don't enjoy the multiple player stuff enough to make the effort. The downside is that now there are holes in the music when the only bass trombone or tuba miscounts a rest. It's even more embarrasing when I come in early. The older you get the harder it is to maintain enough mental clarity to count while ogling the viola section.

[Rick Denney]

If you, Mr. Unknown-to-me Reader, are one of those guys, Stop It. Now. And tell your friends to stop it, too.

Yes, and yes. Even if I'm the bad guy in your memory. But I find it often falls on deaf ears when I tell it to my friends.

The notion of entitlement is absolutely correct, which feeds into the notion that band members often look on musical performance as a sport rather than an art. Laying out is like admitting defeat, instead of serving art. But in a community group, enforcement really does need to come from the podium, and even that is risky in the extreme. Egos are fragile among those performing at the limit of their abilities.

Rick "thinking back to times when Rob helped out in our group, wondering if I was the guilty party on those occasions" Denney