The rebirth of a Holton 345 has started...

[OldsRecording]

Wow. I dig the two-tone finish. Kind of gives it that 'Olds Recording' look. You'll

You have a two-tone finish?

Why, yes. My hair used to be all black, now, thanks to my two boys, it's black and gray.

[OldsRecording]

It will be shiny silver when it is done. Dan describes the copper as the "skim coat before finish paint" to use auto body terms.

I agree- it will be beautiful when it is done.

Even so, it still looks really cool the way it is.

[Art Hovey]

I especially like the fact that Mr. Oberloh has re-positioned the valve block for more playing comfort, rather than slavishly restoring the instrument to its original design, warts and all. I have never seen a tuba yet that I didn't want to change in some way.

[pulseczar]

bump..


Any updates?

[MikeMason]

How's this project going?I'd love to get my hands on the finished product someday...

[Alex C]

I especially like the fact that Mr. Oberloh has re-positioned the valve block for more playing comfort, rather than slavishly restoring the instrument to its original design, warts and all. I have never seen a tuba yet that I didn't want to change in some way.

I have been comparing pictures of the before and after product and I find it hard to see differences that I can explain, so I don't understand the comment.

The 3rd bow looks further away from the bottom bow but the top of the tuning slides seem to be in about the same place. The valve block may have been moved up an inch or so but, then, all of this may just be camera angles.

I owned a Holton CC for twenty years and didn't find an ergonomic issue, except the weight and the first valve slide. I have played BBb's (Holton & York) that were cut to CC and I noticed that the valve block seemed to be positioned higher after the cut. This made the center of gravity higher so that it took more strength (isometric tension, WORK) to hold the horn upright; he horn was constantly wanting to lean forward. Picking one of those horns up into position became an effort, holding it there wore me out after a practice session.

So, I don't disagree with the comment, I just don't see it.

[cjk]

...
I have played BBb's (Holton & York) that were cut to CC and I noticed that the valve block seemed to be positioned higher after the cut. This made the center of gravity higher so that it took more strength (isometric tension, WORK) to hold the horn upright; he horn was constantly wanting to lean forward. Picking one of those horns up into position became an effort, holding it there wore me out after a practice session.

Isn't that a feature of horns cut by Bob Rusk specifically? I've never seen a cut horn with that big hole above the bottom bow that wasn't claimed to be "Rusk cut".


All the best,

Christian

[Bandmaster]

I have been comparing pictures of the before and after product and I find it hard to see differences that I can explain, so I don't understand the comment.

The 3rd bow looks further away from the bottom bow but the top of the tuning slides seem to be in about the same place. The valve block may have been moved up an inch or so but, then, all of this may just be camera angles.

I owned a Holton CC for twenty years and didn't find an ergonomic issue, except the weight and the first valve slide. I have played BBb's (Holton & York) that were cut to CC and I noticed that the valve block seemed to be positioned higher after the cut. This made the center of gravity higher so that it took more strength (isometric tension, WORK) to hold the horn upright; he horn was constantly wanting to lean forward. Picking one of those horns up into position became an effort, holding it there wore me out after a practice session.

So, I don't disagree with the comment, I just don't see it.

Being that I used to hold the horn in my hands, I see it easily. The valve block is not higher or lower (vertically), it is now much closer to the bell. Dan moved the valve block horizontally closer to the player so you don't have to reach around to horn as much to reach the valves. I am 6'6" and even I was uncomfortable with the "reach" to the valves the way the horn used to be. I don't know if it was this way from the factory becasue this old Holton had been damaged and repaired so many times over the years (it was a high school horn) that who know how far things were knocked out of alignment.

I talked to Dan today and the Holton has progressed a little over the last couple months, even though they have been busy getting ready to move the shop to a new location. He has made two leadpipes so far but is still going to try a third in an effert to get the response he is looking for. So yes, it has been played a few times. He says he also has yet to finish polishing the bell and engrave it. Plus it still needs to be silver plated. Dan seems to think I should have it back in time for Christmas.

[Alex C]

Most people don't know that Holton made three leadpipes for this model tuba. They were numbered ingenuously #1, #2 and #3. I may have the order wrong but here's the way I remember it:

#1 - gave the instrument great intonation, the sound was uneven and the response in the low register was not good.

#2 - gave the instrument good intonation with an acceptable sound and decent response in the low register.

#3 - gave the instrument a sound similar to a York: round, bouncy - it made you sound better than you were. The intonation was unmanagable and the response made you feel impotent.

My horn was originally a special order for Jacobs, which I bought from him, and it came with interchangeable leadpipes. There was no reason to change leadpipes so when I approved the final version at the factory, I had them make the #2 leadpipe, which was the one they used on stock horns, permanent on mine.

I would love to know what Dan is doing in making the leadpipes. His work is truly amazing but I don't have the temperment to wait that long for a horn.

[Bandmaster]

Most people don't know that Holton made three leadpipes for this model tuba. They were numbered ingenuously #1, #2 and #3. I may have the order wrong but here's the way I remember it:

#1 - gave the instrument great intonation, the sound was uneven and the response in the low register was not good.

#2 - gave the instrument good intonation with an acceptable sound and decent response in the low register.

#3 - gave the instrument a sound similar to a York: round, bouncy - it made you sound better than you were. The intonation was unmanagable and the response made you feel impotent.

My horn was originally a special order for Jacobs, which I bought from him, and it came with interchangeable leadpipes. There was no reason to change leadpipes so when I approved the final version at the factory, I had them make the #2 leadpipe, which was the one they used on stock horns, permanent on mine.

I would love to know what Dan is doing in making the leadpipes. His work is truly amazing but I don't have the temperment to wait that long for a horn.

I was just thinking.... I always read about owners of the MW 2165 swapping out the leadpipe for the MW 45slp leadpipe. Since the 2165 is a copy of DP's CC Holton 345, would the 45slp leadpipe work on a BBb or CC Holton 345? Hey Dan, what do you think???

[UDELBR]

Since the 2165 is a copy of DP's CC Holton 345

Is that right? I always heard it was copied from Don Little's Holton. Is that instrument now owned by DP?

Regardless: there are copious changes. The 2165 is a 3-bow instrument, and the 345 was always a 5-bow instrument. Not to mention leadpipes, etc....

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Its been a while since my last post to this thread. I am glad to say that Dave's Holton is finally in the last stages prior to completion. I have worked on it as time allows but that has been short in supply since the move of the shop last summer. I have worked out the details of the new replacement mouth-pipe and plan its fabrication later this coming week. I wrapped up engraving of the bell this afternoon and have included a few images of the process.


Having decided on which graver to use, it is carefully sharpened.


After horizontal guide lines are lightly applied with a surface gage scribe, the typical simple letter pattern Holton used on many brass instruments was carefully transferred to the bell. We then start the engraving process.


Yours truly, focused on the task of engraving the bell.



Just like many Holton low production instruments, the letters were engraved by hand. Typically they all are slightly different and a tad uneven. Dave's 345 engraving is no exception.

I will try and get details on making and installing the new mouth-pipe by the end of this coming week. It won't be long before we are ready to plate.

I hope this thread is not getting tiresome for you all and that it is still of some interest.

Dan

[Bandmaster]

Not fancy, but just like a lot of Holton's I have seen photos of on the net. Looks good to me! I can't wait to get her back. Thanks for the update Dan! I guess I better get busy finishing up my restoration of the original case.

[The Big Ben]

Too bad Dan did not show the process for selecting the proper engraver and technique..

I visited the shop and saw him as he refined his technique and modified the shape of the engraver to be "just so". There is a piece of brass sheet with about ten different engraved lines that are distinctly different that probably has been put in the scrap bin by now. The shape of the end of the engraver, the movement of the wrist and the speed of pushing the tool into the metal all make a difference.

Dave should be pretty happy when it's all done!

[Alex C]

Since the 2165 is a copy of DP's CC Holton 345

Is that right? I always heard it was copied from Don Little's Holton. Is that instrument now owned by DP?

Regardless: there are copious changes. The 2165 is a 3-bow instrument, and the 345 was always a 5-bow instrument. Not to mention leadpipes, etc....

Well, if you want the history, Don sold his Holton to Floyd Cooley, then he missed it so much that he bought mine. He then spend 6 months in Berlin subbing for Ray Nahatski (sorry for the bad spelling here). It was during this time that the Meinl company took that horn and made the original 2165 versions. Yes, there have been many changes and the two instruments are no longer "brothers" but more like cousins.

Don got a chance to buy his horn back from Floyd, I got the chance to buy mine back from Don, so we did. Years later, in a fit of stupidity, I sold the horn which Meinl copied to DP.

DP is having it resurrected in perfection by Maestro Oberloh. DP has not promised that he'll let me have a chance to play it when finished but I hope that he will eventually relent.

[Alex C]

I wrapped up engraving of the bell this afternoon and have included a few images of the process.

I remember watching the Holton employee engrave my bell just before I took it back to Evanston. Even though the finished product was simple block letter engraving, I was amazed to see that it was done freehand at the factory.

Of course, this is to take absolutely nothing away from Dan's multi-facited, perfectionist, skills. All the Holton employee did was engrave; still watching him work freehand was a something I will never forget.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Just like many Holton low production instruments, the letters were engraved by hand. Typically they all are slightly different and a tad uneven. Dave's 345 engraving is no exception.

Was that what the original engraving looked like? Because my Holton has a more cursive style, and says Frank Holton on the front instead of just Holton

This is the pattern found on many later 345 basses. Many of the earlier models had a bigger pattern with the ''Collegiate'' brand and some did have ''Frank Hoton'' I have a bell in the shop with a small Frank Holton pattern and I have also seen larger patterns. I am very familiar with your horn having first seen it years ago when the late Dave Frankie had it in his possession.


Daniel C. Oberloh

[Bandmaster]

Was that what the original engraving looked like? Because my Holton has a more cursive style, and says Frank Holton on the front instead of just Holton

The engraving on my original bell was barely legible since it had been damaged and repaired so many times. But it was a larger script Holton pattern. All you could make out was just the one word, Holton. But I am happy with whatever is period appropriate. Like Dan said earlier in this thread, these horns were built in small batches as ordered, so the engraving could have been different on every batch. Although it would have been cool to have the pattern below, except it would NOT look original to the 345. Not to mention a lot more expensive to have done.

Holton engraving circa 1912:

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

This is the pattern found on many later 345 basses. Many of the earlier models had a bigger pattern with the ''Collegiate'' brand and some did have ''Frank Hoton'' I have a bell in the shop with a small Frank Holton pattern and I have also seen larger patterns. I am very familiar with your horn having first seen it years ago when the late Dave Frankie had it in his possession.


Daniel C. Oberloh

You wouldnt happen to know more of its repair history would you?

It was at least fifteen years ago when Dave asked me to evaluate the condition and provide a cost estimate for its repair. I do remember the bottom bow cap was badly damaged and beyond salvage. Dave was tight with the bucks and did not want to have a new cap made. He later sold/traded with Mike F. who has had it for some time prior to selling it to you. I do remember Dave telling me about where he got the horn but the content of the discussion has long been forgotten. Sure do miss Dave, he told me of his visiting the J.W. York Band Instrument Company when he was a young man in the late 30s. He met Bill Johnston who he described as a bit of a blow-hard who seemed a little full of himself. Oh yeah, he said that the 345 you have, was the property of Arnold jacobs at some time. Whether that is true or not is another detail that can most probably not be verified. Mike may have a better recollection of details of the horn past. You should ask him.


Dan

[Bandmaster]

I want to see if I can get Dan to logon to this thread again and tell something about the leadpipes he made for my Holton last week. I talked to Paul on the phone last week, since Dan was busy at the time, and he said Dan had made 6 different leadpipes to try on it. He went to say that one pipe really made the tuba rattle the walls of their shop. Paul said the tuba really played well with this leadpipe but it was a little high on the pitch. Dan wants to make one more pipe like that one only just a little longer. I am sure could fill us in better on the details and maybe post some photos?

Hey Dan, how about it?