3/4 with big sound.

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:39 pm

For lots of reasons, I'd like to get a different horn. I'd like a four valved horn that is smaller than the King 2340 I have. I'd like it to have rotors and an upright bell.

I live in a very small house and am always tripping over the 2340. My car is small, too, and when I have the horn in its cases, it's just me, one open seat and the tuba. It won't fit in the trunk.

I'm planning on being in concert band, amateur orchestra and anticipate maybe in a quar/quintet.

I don't want to lose the big sound of the 2340 but want something that takes up less space. I want that fourth valve, too. What I'm looking for is a 3/4 with big sound. Ideally, it would be BBb but I know CC fingerings as a trumpet player so I could see getting a CC horn.

I would like this horn to be on the inexpensive side- $4K or so new, less for used. Two horns which come to mind are the Cerveny Piggy in CC and Cerveny 683 BBb Arion (or 'BBb Piggy') I see the CC Piggy used for about $2.5K and the new BBb Arion for about $3.5K. I am not adverse to Chinese clones of either (The M&M small CC for $1.6K and 'BBb Piggy Clone' for $2.6K come to mind.) as long as they sound good and have a big sound. Too bad I missed out on the Dalyans...

The Weril 3/4 comes to mind but it is front loader piston. The Yamahas are too expensive for my budget. A top loader piston would be OK but I don't know of any that promise the 'big sound' of the larger bored Cervenys and their clones.

Anyone have any suggestions?

gregsundt · Post by **gregsundt** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:05 pm

I would say you are on the right track with the piggy, although the 5/4-sized valve section can be a lot to fill. I have no experience with the Getzen G50 or the Conn 5xJ production models, but they certainly look 3/4-ish, and have venerable pedigrees. Finding one in your price range might be the challenge.

WakinAZ · Post by **WakinAZ** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:43 pm

Here's a Weril on the 'Bay: http://cgi.ebay.com/Weril-3-4-Tuba_W0QQ ... dZViewItem

Drawbacks: piston, seller has *no* feedback.

WakinAZ · Post by **WakinAZ** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:55 pm

Also consider a Lidl 3/4 rotary if you can find one.

My little Olds O-99 packs a heckuva punch for a 3/4. The 4v ones are rare, but there is one on the 'Bay right now: http://cgi.ebay.com/F-E-Olds-Son-4-Valv ... dZViewItem The three valvers have been in great supply lately and there are several on there, including these with cheap BINs:
http://cgi.ebay.com/F-E-Olds-Fullerton- ... p1638.m118
http://cgi.ebay.com/Olds-Fullerton-Cali ... p1638.m118 The lack of a fourth valve has not held me back in community band, the low end is great for a smaller horn.

Eric

brianggilbert · Post by **brianggilbert** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:08 pm

Give some thought to the Jupiter 482 - I just picked one up that was about 7 months old in MINT condition for under $2K. I use it primarily in a quintet setting but it has the horsepower for a symphonic band. The 4 piston valves in front are quick and short-stroked.

cjk · Post by **cjk** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:11 pm

The Big Ben wrote:For lots of reasons, I'd like to get a different horn. I'd like a four valved horn that is smaller than the King 2340 I have. I'd like it to have rotors and an upright bell.

I live in a very small house and am always tripping over the 2340. My car is small, too, and when I have the horn in its cases, it's just me, one open seat and the tuba. It won't fit in the trunk.

I'm planning on being in concert band, amateur orchestra and anticipate maybe in a quar/quintet.

I don't want to lose the big sound of the 2340 but want something that takes up less space. I want that fourth valve, too. What I'm looking for is a 3/4 with big sound. Ideally, it would be BBb but I know CC fingerings as a trumpet player so I could see getting a CC horn.
...

Since you said cases (plural), I'm assuming you have one of the older, detachable bell King 2340s, probably with a recording bell since you're sure you want an upright bell.

The old detachable bell Kings are very tall and a lot of the bells are very big. If you've got a recording bell, it seems all the bigger.

The NEW King 2341 is a lot more compact due to the shorter, smaller diameter upright bell. It might be smaller enough for you.

Here's what I think you have:

and here's what I'm suggesting:

If the new King 2341 its not smaller enough for you, I'd suggest a used Miraphone 186, a 4 valve Olds 099 or using the $4,000 to buy a bigger car.

joshwirt · Post by **joshwirt** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:25 pm

While I haven't played this particular horn, Baltimore Brass has a used Yamaha YCB-661 CC tuba for sale. I own one and its FANTASTIC in a brass quintet/choir and will carry just fine in a smaller orchestra. The previous owner used it as his 'Nutcracker' tuba. I've played it on several quintet gigs since I bought it in August and just love it.

The one at BBC looks to be in good condition. Call them and they will give you a totally straight assessment of the horn.

http://www.baltimorebrass.net/pic.php?id=403

-Josh

eupher61 · Post by **eupher61** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:31 pm

It sounds like you're Primed for Piggy!

Be sure to check it out yourself, or have a trusted person check it out, before you are totally obligated. A good Piggy is a gem; a bad one is a nightmare.

Yes, I'm a Piggy fan. Wish I'd never sold mine.

BTW, the Weril 3/4 is a lot smaller than the Piggy, I'd be hard pressed to recommend it for concert band/orchestra use by anyone over the age of 14.

Ace · Post by **Ace** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:03 pm

As suggested above, don't overlook the Jupiter 482 BBb 3/4 tuba. I owned one and was very pleased with it for a number of reasons: tone quality and dynamic range; superior valve action; quality of build and finish; very good intonation; nice case; relatively low price. IMHO, the 482 is a winner. I sold it only because there were too many tubas and other instruments in my house. The Coast Guardsman who bought it was delighted with the horn.

r smith · Post by **r smith** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:42 pm

The Lidl 3/4 Tuba has a large sound for the size.
http://www.hornguys.com/hornsinstocktuba.htm
Ferguson Music can import them for you. They are out of stock at the present time. Give them a call.
I got mine a few years ago & am very happy with it.
Happy hunting.
Ron

r smith · Post by **r smith** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:51 pm

More information on the Lidl LBB 701 3/4 Tuba.
http://www.lidlmusic.cz/josef/news/lbb701.htm
If you can find one to try I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Ron

Art Hovey · Post by **Art Hovey** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:05 pm

Have you considered a Conn 5J?

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:23 pm

My two biggest complaints about some 3/4 contrabass tubas:
A) They sound like a bass trombone at FF and above.
Seems to be more common in some of the rotor horns.
and / or
B) They seriously back up on you when you start moving a lot of air, especially when using combinations of valves.
Seems to be more common in some of the very smallbore piston horns.
IF you can find a 3/4 that doesn't do either, you got yourself a winner.
The "Weimar" I recently sold did neither, but there were a few minor pitch issues. Alternate fingerings with a 5th valve would have made it near perfect.
3/4 Rudy's are awsome horns, but as has been frequently mentioned, they are for all intents and purposes 4/4 horns.

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 am

Don't overlook the Miraphone 184, although decent BBb's are hard to find. Mine projects wonderfully and sounds a lot bigger in the hall than it does to my ear.

WakinAZ · Post by **WakinAZ** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:15 pm

On second thought, I really think Jeff should be thinking small 4/4 vs. 3/4 after looking at his proposed playing environments: concert band, orchestra, quintet. 186 CC? A 186 in a gig bag should be manageable. I had one and found it a little on the small side for large ensembles. The bass bone splat effect Marty mentioned was noticeable but manageable.

Eric

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:50 am

Thanks for the info so far. I've found out about a couple of hirns I had not considered.

1. Jupiter 482-I had not even considered a Jupiter. The specs. imply that it might do the job. I'll have to try and see if I can play one.

2. Yes, my King 2340 is a take-apart, recording bell model. I understand that the new model 2340/1 has a King Eb Monster bell. I had actually considered tracking one of those bells down and having it put on. If it were only that easy... I suppose I could do it myself but what sort of mess would I end up having? It really isn't a matter of 'soldering it right on'. I know one of the skilled horn jockeys would have to do it and the costs would rise so high that, financially, it would not be worth it. If my horn was a 2341, perhaps it would be worthwhile. But probably not.

However, the new King 2341 is now under consideration.

3. I'm making a run on the Olds 4v on DaBay. It needs some repairs- bell is bent, 4th valve has something wrong with it. The price is getting close to being too much considering the need for repairs but, we'll see.

4. The Cervenys are still pretty attractive. The Piggy seems to offer a lot of sound in a compact package. I'd like to find one of those to try.

5. The suggestion of getting a few lessons from an active pro tuba player is a good one. I'll have to consider that.

Thanks for the input and, if anyone has any more ideas, post 'em here.

Jeff "I have some money and know how to spend it" Benedict

chipster55 · Post by **chipster55** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:00 am

Ben, I'm also curious about a 4-valve rotary 3/4. I've seen the Mirafone 282 in the WWBW catalog & website. Has anyone played this horn? It's expensive, but the specs would indicate it would be a pretty robust horn.

tbn.al · Post by **tbn.al** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:10 pm

The Big Ben wrote: 3. I'm making a run on the Olds 4v on DaBay. It needs some repairs- bell is bent, 4th valve has something wrong with it. The price is getting close to being too much considering the need for repairs but, we'll see.

Take a good close look at the picture of the valves. That might explain the 4th problem. One of the techs might chime in about the condition of the valves. They look awful to me, but I don't from nutin'.

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:14 pm

tbn.al wrote:
The Big Ben wrote: 3. I'm making a run on the Olds 4v on DaBay. It needs some repairs- bell is bent, 4th valve has something wrong with it. The price is getting close to being too much considering the need for repairs but, we'll see.
Take a good close look at the picture of the valves. That might explain the 4th problem. One of the techs might chime in about the condition of the valves. They look awful to me, but I don't from nutin'.

Yes, that one looks really worn. The others look OK but that one is down to the brass. Startin' to make me a little leery.... It goes in a few hours... Might be better to let it be someone else's problem, not mine.... The price really is gettin' high all things considered.

Edit: The Olds got well over $700, I was leery of the valves, especially since it might cost $5-600 to get it into presentable playing shape.(It had a big bell wang, too.) I hadn't considered the horn until it came up here so... It finally went for $810. Good luck to someone...

JohnMCooper · Post by **JohnMCooper** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:17 pm

tbn.al wrote:Don't overlook the Miraphone 184, although decent BBb's are hard to find. Mine projects wonderfully and sounds a lot bigger in the hall than it does to my ear.

I'd second that! I holds it own quite well for a small horn!

TubeNet

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