Question about King tuba

[EdFirth]

The Conns were fashioned from parts for the old style King , by Matt Walters . The ferrules are tapered to accomidate shortening the horn to C . They then decided to put the one piece bell on the Kings too . King used to make this horn , threr's a picture of Stouffer's son playing one in Treatice on the Tuba and The West Point Band had four when I was there.The slide wraps have been "modernized" to top pull , open wrap but basically , they are the same horns that they always were . I have an old style as wall as a "new" style King and they work very well for anything . There does seem to alot of variance in the new ones so playing several is a good idea . But overall these are terriffic horns . Good luck . Ed

[Rick Denney]

point is..buy the new King tuba! (getting back to the original question) anyways, i think the king is based on the 5xJ tubas because the Conns were made way before they even started making the King.

Well, no. The Kings have been in production for generations. The new 2341 is a relatively small (but highly visible) modification of the original design. The Conn is still relatively new on the market, being less than 7 or 8 years in production.

You may have seen the Conn first--I'll grant that.

Many people have asked for a BBb version of the Conn, which has been popular. But always the Conn was a C version of a King, with some improvements. What they wanted was a shorter Bb King, and that's what they got.

To me, the King 2341 is more like a BBb version of a Getzen G50. Some bought the Getzen and relinked the fifth valve to provide a full-time Bb operation, using the fifth valve as an ascending valve. But running the main bugle through that tight fifth-valve tubing was less than optimal. Those folks I know who did that have mostly replaced them with Kings. The good ones are great tubas.

Rick "have a drink" Denney

[WakinAZ]

Fit and finish - simply atrocious.

I'll second that re: the new 2341. From a previous thread:

...appeared to have been assembled by a disinterested junior high school shop class; I actually had to disassemble the horn (removable valve assembly) and alter one of the slides to be able to take it completely out.

...the new King is very similar to the best of the old 1241's that preceded the tall-bell 2341's.

I thought the old 2341 and 1241 were the same bell/stack-wise, only the third valve circuit was different and moveable vs. fixed upper first valve loop.

Eric "loves his old (1950) 2340/1240 model" L

[CTAYLOR]

point is..buy the new King tuba! (getting back to the original question) anyways, i think the king is based on the 5xJ tubas because the Conns were made way before they even started making the King.

Well, no. The Kings have been in production for generations. The new 2341 is a relatively small (but highly visible) modification of the original design. The Conn is still relatively new on the market, being less than 7 or 8 years in production.

You may have seen the Conn first--I'll grant that.


Rick "have a drink" Denney

I know Kings and Conns have been made for the longest! I was talking about the NEW style King 2341. That was made after they started making the 5XJ horns right? I remember when they came out with them. 5 or 6 years ago right?

[CTAYLOR]

Rick "have a drink" Denney

I think i will have a drink

[iiipopes]

point is..buy the new King tuba! (getting back to the original question) anyways, i think the king is based on the 5xJ tubas because the Conns were made way before they even started making the King.

From 1940:



And from Rick Denney's "Tubas Compared" page:

"Conn 52J CC tuba. One of the  most popular new tubas on the market, the Conn 52J is built from parts made for the King 2341 BBb tuba with a bell from an older King Eb tuba."

And this thread on old TubeNet:
http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/aug1999 ... 15256.html

[The Big Ben]

I'll take one.

Artist's Special, Gold Hand Burnished, BBb----- 700.00
Fourth Register Extra Valve --------------------- 20.00
Case, Corduroy lined ---------------------------- 55.00

TOTAL --------------------------------------------- 775.00


Where do I send my check?


Jeff "The Times, They are A'changing..." Benedict

[The Big Ben]

Looking at this old ad, it is interesting to me that King offered this horn as a CC at no extra cost. Must have been a fairly easy task...

Again, looking at the drawings posted and looking at my own 2340, it would appear to be fairly easy to take the length out of the main bugle by shortening the inner branches at the ferrules which are located about in the center of the long sides of the branches. Yep, I see the taper in the bores but that could be allowed for. Valve slides would need to be adjusted, too. Not a simple task and certainly not one that one would pay to have done but the potential seems to be there. Why? Kind of like climbing mountains: "Because they are there" Rick Denney also cut an Eb into an F kind of to see if he could do it. Cutting one of these Kings might make something really satisfactory. I've read that Sam Gnagey has cut some 2341s into CC horns. Then, again, Sam Gnagey has made *lots* of horns that are pretty satisfactory...

Is this kind of what Matt Walters did when he made the prototype for The Borg?

I wouldn't suggest buying a new 2341 and having it cut- just buy the Conn. Judging by the reactions of some when I suggested trying to solder up a few braces yourself, I don't imagine many here would attempt to do this. Dan Schultz might but he's not a 'CC sort of guy'. I don't think Rick Denney is either...

Jeff "Amusing myself" Benedict

[Dan Schultz]

....Dan Schultz might but he's not a 'CC sort of guy'. I don't think Rick Denney is either... Jeff "Amusing myself" Benedict

I would come closer to making a BBb out of a CC instead. Makin' a CC out of a BBb just involves too darned much cuttin'. I'd rather be stretchin'.

[Rick Denney]

I know Kings and Conns have been made for the longest! I was talking about the NEW style King 2341. That was made after they started making the 5XJ horns right? I remember when they came out with them. 5 or 6 years ago right?

Again: The only difference between a new 2341 and an old one is the bell, the bottom bow (possibly), and a few details about the wrap of the third and fourth-valve branches.

The only difference between a Conn and an old 2341 is the bell, bottom bow, dogleg, valve arrangement, fifth valve, bore in the fourth valve (I think), and probably the leadpipe. The Conn is not a CC conversion of a King. It is a new instrument made from a number of old King parts.

Thus, the new 2341 is far closer to the old 2341 than the Conn is to either, unless you define the instrument solely by the bell.

The Conn came out a year or two before the revised King 2341, but chronology does not prove inheritance.

Rick "the water's fine" Denney

[iiipopes]

Hey Rick -- Thanks.

[WilliamVance]

I have owned a new 2341 for about a year and a half. I am still in love with the horn due to it's great intonation and easy response in all registers. The low C and B natural and right on and I can get some great pedal tones out of it as well. When needed the nigh range is also exceptional for a Bb Tuba.

I owned a 3 valve 2340 (1960's post HN white made) with the upright bell. That was a great horn. I purchased a cerveny to replace the beat up king, but the carrying power and depth of tone was lacking. That is how I ended up with a King 2341. I waited 6 months for it and it was worth it! The only problem, the dreaded water build-up in the 4th valve slide. Also, as advised by other posters, I will agree that you have to watch out for poor finishing and slide problems. The lower 4th valve slide on my King is out of round and there was a blemish in the silver plating ont he side of the 3rd largest branch. I was OK with that since the horn played well. One other item of note is that the valves are not lapped to as close of a tolerance as say a Yamaha or an old HN white horn. Not a lot of "pop" if you pull a slide out. I wonder how great the horn would play with tight valves?

All in all, a great Tuba for the money! Also, they are very good about covering warranty parts. I had my lead pipe come unsoldered where the brace attaches to the bell (lead pipe is detachable). They sent me a King sousaphone mouthpipe first, but also sent me the correct part free of charge. Just make sure you are working with a reputable dealer.

Best of Luck!

[Dan Schultz]

.....The Conn is not a CC conversion of a King. It is a new instrument made from a number of old King parts......

This should not be a big surprise since King and Conn production was merged during the UMI/Conn-Selmer transition between 1987 and just the last couple of years. Many of the old Conn models are now actually TOTALLY King horns. Case-in-point... the Conn 15J is now actually the King 1140 but is still sold at the 15J. I've seen King 1140 horns with bells that are engraved Conn 15J. All of the Conn sousaphones (except for the 20K) are now actually King sousaphones. This all presents some serious issues when trying to figure out what parts to buy for what horns. I no longer buy parts based on information provided by band directors without actually seeing the horn first.

[The Big Ben]

After all of this discussion of King and Conn and who made what where when and how, I have a why:

If the King 2341 and the Conn 5xJ horns are made with some of the same parts and in the same factory and, with the exception of the 5th valve, are similar except for key, why do the 5xJ series cost $4-5 K more? Besides the obvious cost of the 5th valve, are they assembled with greater care, hence, more labor?

BTW: If anyone wants to find out more about the 2341/5xJ situation, search on King 2341 or King CC in the old TubeNet archives and it is covered in detail. My apologies to all for not looking there first before bringing up questions.

[imperialbari]

If memory doesn't fail me totally, the one given, non-changeable, factor in the design of the Conn 5XJ series was the mandatory use of the bottom bow from the old King 2341.

The bore expansion through the pistons of the Conn 5XJ series and through the pistons of the current King 2341 is the exact same: there is no expansion. All pistons have the bore of 0.687".

The 4th valve loop of the Conn 5XJ series has it bore expanded after the piston, but the bore is shrunk back before the re-entry into the piston.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[CTAYLOR]

wow..yall all just made me look like a retard. thanks for that old ad. I dont think i've ever seen an old King TOP action recording bass. I want one now.

[WakinAZ]

Since we're having a history lesson: when did King introduce the upright bell for the 124X series? I also did not realize these came in top-action, although they must not have sold very well since you don't see that configuration much (if at all).

Eric "who did not know that he owned a 'Symphony Bass', **feels more important**" L.

[Rick Denney]

If the King 2341 and the Conn 5xJ horns are made with some of the same parts and in the same factory and, with the exception of the 5th valve, are similar except for key, why do the 5xJ series cost $4-5 K more?

The cost is not the independent variable. The market is the independent variable, and the allowable cost is based on that.

CC tuba player are willing to pay more than BBb tuba players. CC tuba buyers are usually colleges, college kids and pros or pro wannabes. BBb tuba buyers are usually high schools, high-school kids or their parents, and adult amateurs. There are plenty of exceptions, of course.

In general, college and professional players see the purchase of an instrument as a tool for their livelihood and they are prepared to spent what it takes. High-school and adult amateurs have to balance that expense with other expenses, though in some cases they can spend as much as anybody.

So, the folks at (then) UMI thought, how can we modify the 2341 to be as popular for the BBb market as the 52J has been in the CC market? They look and see good BBb tubas (such as the VMI 2301 and 3301, among many others) being offered in the $4K neighborhood, and they realize they have to sell a BBb tuba at that price to get any volume at all.

So, they do what they have to do to reduce costs such that the 2341 is cheap enough to sell at that price point. That's why the fit and finish are not nearly as good--they just don't take those finishing steps like they do with the 5xJ. That's also why it doesn't have a fifth valve. BBb players aren't willing to pay for it.

Of the ~$3000 difference in price, a third of that is the fifth valve. I'll be the $2000 remaining difference only pays for about a dozen additional hours of labor from their best workers to provide that finish work. They can have higher costs because the CC buyers will pay a higher price. But they will expect higher finish quality for that higher price.

Stated another way: There isn't much market for cheaply made CC tubas, but the bulk of the BBb market is price-driven.

Rick "thinking price drives cost not the other way around" Denney

[The Big Ben]

If the King 2341 and the Conn 5xJ horns are made with some of the same parts and in the same factory and, with the exception of the 5th valve, are similar except for key, why do the 5xJ series cost $4-5 K more?

The cost is not the independent variable. The market is the independent variable, and the allowable cost is based on that.

CC tuba player are willing to pay more than BBb tuba players. CC tuba buyers are usually colleges, college kids and pros or pro wannabes. BBb tuba buyers are usually high schools, high-school kids or their parents, and adult amateurs. There are plenty of exceptions, of course.

In general, college and professional players see the purchase of an instrument as a tool for their livelihood and they are prepared to spent what it takes. High-school and adult amateurs have to balance that expense with other expenses, though in some cases they can spend as much as anybody.

So, the folks at (then) UMI thought, how can we modify the 2341 to be as popular for the BBb market as the 52J has been in the CC market? They look and see good BBb tubas (such as the VMI 2301 and 3301, among many others) being offered in the $4K neighborhood, and they realize they have to sell a BBb tuba at that price to get any volume at all.

So, they do what they have to do to reduce costs such that the 2341 is cheap enough to sell at that price point. That's why the fit and finish are not nearly as good--they just don't take those finishing steps like they do with the 5xJ. That's also why it doesn't have a fifth valve. BBb players aren't willing to pay for it.

Of the ~$3000 difference in price, a third of that is the fifth valve. I'll be the $2000 remaining difference only pays for about a dozen additional hours of labor from their best workers to provide that finish work. They can have higher costs because the CC buyers will pay a higher price. But they will expect higher finish quality for that higher price.

Stated another way: There isn't much market for cheaply made CC tubas, but the bulk of the BBb market is price-driven.

Rick "thinking price drives cost not the other way around" Denney

I'll grant you all of your points and they are well taken. I'm not privy to the actual costs of labor between the King and the Conn horns. The extra cost of the 5th is an obvious factor.

I don't have a comprehensive list of other manufacturers prices and which BBb horn is equal to which CC horn but do notice in the WWBW catalog, the 4v BBb Miraphone 186 is the same price as the 4v CC 186. Apples and oranges?

(There was a discussion here a month or so ago and in the Old TubeNet archives regarding the 5th valve on the 5XJ Conns. Fair amount of controversy regarding the value and efficacy of said valve. Some say the horn is better with a brass tube professionally inserted in lieu of the 5th valve. Search the archives if you are interested.)

[Rick Denney]

I don't have a comprehensive list of other manufacturers prices and which BBb horn is equal to which CC horn but do notice in the WWBW catalog, the 4v BBb Miraphone 186 is the same price as the 4v CC 186. Apples and oranges?

No, that is a good example that demonstrates the point.

Would you agree that most Bb tuba players think of the Miraphone 186 as a high-end instrument, usually above their budget?

And would you agree that most C tuba players think of the Miraphone 186 as an instrument they might regret buying, despite its low cost, because they will outgrow it or because they don't think it can compete on the audition circuit?

The Bb 186 is an expensive option, while the C 186 is considered to be a bargain. Yet they are the same price.

The Rudolf Meinl Bb tubas are as expensive as their C tubas, but they are mostly marketed to pros in Germany who use Bb tubas. They are consequently quite rare on this side of the pond. The C tuba are much more common because their price fits the market.

I know for a fact that Conn-Selmer controlled costs of the 2341 by limiting the finish work for the specific reason of keeping the price down in the school purchase range.

Rick "veteran of many, many marketing meetings whose sole purpose was to gauge the market's willingness to pay" Denney